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Old 08-07-2011, 07:12 AM
 
4,159 posts, read 4,198,215 times
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Autos give us more freedom and are more efficient means of transportation. The gas engine might not be but the car certainly is for most people. The second choice has to be a bus. HSR just does not have the demand and is too slow compared to air travel. The HSR on the East Coast has never been heavily used despite billions of dollars to support it. I would like a trolly system in many cities like they did a hundred years ago, San Diego has a nice system, but there seems to be no movement towards that. Portland has a system, but it is grossly mismanaged.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:17 PM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,381 posts, read 22,645,987 times
Reputation: 4504
Quote:
Originally Posted by totsuka View Post
Autos give us more freedom and are more efficient means of transportation. The gas engine might not be but the car certainly is for most people. The second choice has to be a bus. HSR just does not have the demand and is too slow compared to air travel. The HSR on the East Coast has never been heavily used despite billions of dollars to support it. I would like a trolly system in many cities like they did a hundred years ago, San Diego has a nice system, but there seems to be no movement towards that. Portland has a system, but it is grossly mismanaged.
HSR is not used on the East Coast? The Northeast Corridor turns a profit and is used by 750,000 people daily. It does eat up at the Airplane market.... The NEC may have gotten billions or the past decade , but thats still not enough to replace all the Infastrature along 400+ length. Bridges are crumbling , tunnels to , stations are at or over capacity , the line slows at rush hr....wires fail once a week... The Portland system is fine and the San Diego system is done expanding.... The Philly system should be a model for most cities...

Last edited by DarkWolf; 08-07-2011 at 01:33 PM..
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:20 PM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,381 posts, read 22,645,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
That was the latest I could find. The FY 2011 audit wouldn't be out yet. What do you believe would have changed much. They would have had to increase ridership by many times, along with acquiring new rolling stock, which would have meant more capital expense.

Oops, here's the FY 2010 audit submitted last November. The operating loss was only $22M.

http://www.vre.org/about/Financial_s...l_Stm_2010.pdf
Well add more trains and yes its a loss , but its infastrature ....its not supposed to turn a profit. But its supposed to take cars off the roads and with more trains it will , give people Bi-direction peak hr travel and ridership will soar.....yes it will cost more but Virginia has pumped billions and still pumps billions into there Road network. Upgrading and Expanding VRE wouldn't hurt , and running it is still cheaper then the Highways.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:37 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,156 posts, read 39,250,114 times
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
Well add more trains and yes its a loss , but its infastrature ....its not supposed to turn a profit. But its supposed to take cars off the roads and with more trains it will , give people Bi-direction peak hr travel and ridership will soar.....yes it will cost more but Virginia has pumped billions and still pumps billions into there Road network. Upgrading and Expanding VRE wouldn't hurt , and running it is still cheaper then the Highways.

Is it too much for it to at least come close to breaking even?

Without dedicated trackage there is a finite number of new trains that can be added. You're never going to get everybody that lives out there and commutes to go VRE, that's an unreasonable wish.

I suppose you know that MD eliminated some of the commuter bus routes in SoMD this past Spring due to lack of ridership?
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:07 PM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,381 posts, read 22,645,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Is it too much for it to at least come close to breaking even?

Without dedicated trackage there is a finite number of new trains that can be added. You're never going to get everybody that lives out there and commutes to go VRE, that's an unreasonable wish.

I suppose you know that MD eliminated some of the commuter bus routes in SoMD this past Spring due to lack of ridership?
VRE runs on Double Tracks , the signal system needs to upgraded then you wouldn't have that many freight conflicts.... MD needs to reorganize itself , Transit wise its a bad system , doesn't seem to go where people want to go...or run when they want to run. The Penn line should at least have hourly service , Camden line should have service every 2hrs and the Brunswick line every 2hrs , Bi-Directional service. Rail is not supposed to break even , Do roads Break even? You keep forgetting roads do not break end....
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:19 PM
 
645 posts, read 1,069,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totsuka View Post
Autos give us more freedom and are more efficient means of transportation. The gas engine might not be but the car certainly is for most people. The second choice has to be a bus. HSR just does not have the demand and is too slow compared to air travel. The HSR on the East Coast has never been heavily used despite billions of dollars to support it. I would like a trolly system in many cities like they did a hundred years ago, San Diego has a nice system, but there seems to be no movement towards that. Portland has a system, but it is grossly mismanaged.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:21 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,156 posts, read 39,250,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
VRE runs on Double Tracks , the signal system needs to upgraded then you wouldn't have that many freight conflicts.... MD needs to reorganize itself , Transit wise its a bad system , doesn't seem to go where people want to go...or run when they want to run. The Penn line should at least have hourly service , Camden line should have service every 2hrs and the Brunswick line every 2hrs , Bi-Directional service. Rail is not supposed to break even , Do roads Break even? You keep forgetting roads do not break end....

You guys always say that "roads don't break even", where can I find that? I don't doubt your assertion exactly but.......
I imagine that roads "don't break even", and I don't know exactly how that could be determined except on tolled roads, because so much of the gas tax revenues are siphoned off for high density commuter projects and, at least in MD's case, to balance the General Fund.

Rail isn't supposed to break even? Then why does every plan proposed for passenger rail, whether long distance or local, always talk about how it will break even or turn a profit in X number of years. And you forget VRE is one of your precious Public/Private Partenerships that was supposed to change the paradigm.
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,020,709 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
I imagine that roads "don't break even", and I don't know exactly how that could be determined except on tolled roads, because so much of the gas tax revenues are siphoned off for high density commuter projects and, at least in MD's case, to balance the General Fund.
Do you think it would be cheaper to siphon all gas tax to build only roads? What kind of "system" do you envision in places like Bay Area (San Fransisco) and New York City without the extensive rail network?
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:16 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,156 posts, read 39,250,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Do you think it would be cheaper to siphon all gas tax to build only roads? What kind of "system" do you envision in places like Bay Area (San Fransisco) and New York City without the extensive rail network?

I didn't say that. What I have noticed is that many in this thread, especially the rail boosters, seem to ignore current and future realities.
1) cars aren't going away soon nor is the highway system.
2) many people can't use public transportation for a variety of reasons, from scheduling to location to type of job.
3) it's physically impossible to service everyone, or even a majority of people, in most metropolitan areas due to the growth patterns and job shifting.
The DC area is a case in point, the Metro system was designed in the 60's, built in the 70's and didn't take into account the growth of the suburbs or the shift in jobs away from DC to the suburban areas. With BRAC hitting the area those people transferring here are, in great numbers, being assigned to areas with no transit and no future plans to implement it.
4) That mass transit is a money loser, that's why the RR's got out of passenger service, and no amount of juggling schedules or adding routes will change that. Also, even PPP's which purport to be business based can't survive without massive public subsidies above and beyond those already provided.
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,020,709 times
Reputation: 12105
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
I didn't say that. What I have noticed is that many in this thread, especially the rail boosters, seem to ignore current and future realities.
1) cars aren't going away soon nor is the highway system.
2) many people can't use public transportation for a variety of reasons, from scheduling to location to type of job.
3) it's physically impossible to service everyone, or even a majority of people, in most metropolitan areas due to the growth patterns and job shifting.
The DC area is a case in point, the Metro system was designed in the 60's, built in the 70's and didn't take into account the growth of the suburbs or the shift in jobs away from DC to the suburban areas. With BRAC hitting the area those people transferring here are, in great numbers, being assigned to areas with no transit and no future plans to implement it.
4) That mass transit is a money loser, that's why the RR's got out of passenger service, and no amount of juggling schedules or adding routes will change that. Also, even PPP's which purport to be business based can't survive without massive public subsidies above and beyond those already provided.
Cheap oil, government guarantees to oil interests played it well. No wonder RR could not compete. Instead of developing railway network, we developed roadways. Of course, there is a reason we burn 20 million bbl/day (half of it on transportation). But, RR will return. Ask Warren Buffet that, and the expanding hubs around many commercial centers.

But, going back to commuter and long distance passenger network, nobody has suggested that cars will go away. But you keep trying to make a point that since it is not profitable, it hurts more than it helps? Then you should be able to envision a better New York City or San Fransisco area without the railway network? If they don't turn profits, would it be better if we got rid of those systems as well?
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