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Old 06-02-2009, 07:14 AM
 
6,307 posts, read 7,188,206 times
Reputation: 8049

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You're the one who repeatedly mentioned crossing the border in six different posts in the past 4 hours, in response to me, after I had explained that its not about the border. You didn't even dispute my point, you just kept going back to the border as if I had not said anything at all.
*at the risk of getting a headache from banging my head against the wall*

Have you not brought up the idea of enhanced driver's licenses? Wasn't some person you were speaking about in Maine complaining about the boogeyman forcing him to get this? *Why* would someone get this license? Because it serves the same function as a passport when traveling between many points in North America. It's convenient. It serves as a back-up to other documentation.

Now, what is your point? That this is just another way for "him" to get our information? I do believe that I addressed that point very early on. Considering what this information is used for, IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME.

I do realize that it's difficult for you to comprehend this simple concept, for whatever reason. I don't mind giving the state my information for my regular driver's license. Considering that this IS the main form of identification that I use while in my own country, I have no issues with the state wanting to make sure that I am who I say I am.

*waits again for you to glom on to one sentence in my post*
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 9,164,442 times
Reputation: 9523
Oh, No.
I actually agree with jtur88.
Now I have to go kill myself. Excuse me...

Seriously, I do have a few points to make.

1) When my home state of SC's Legislature was considering rejecting the enhanced ID, they were told by the FedGov that if they refused to ratify it, that no South Carolinian would be allowed to fly without one, so they had better ratify it. So the argument that 'no one is forced' to get one simply doesn't - er - fly. Sure, you won't be "forced" - but you won't have the right to freely purchase an airline ticket from a free-market company and travel wherever you choose, even state-to-state, as an American citizen and 'free' individual. Our Republican governor was fighting "his" own Republican President and Congress by refusing to support the National ID. To him, it wasn't just a 'slippery slope', it was a denial of rights held by an American to keep his/her private life - private.

2) The potential for abuse with an Enhanced ID is vast. Sure, most cops are decent, law-abiding guys in white hats who want to save and protect the communities they serve. I have no doubt; I know many, love them dearly, and have worked with them. But all you need is ONE with an ID scanner who cheerfully swipes all of an individual's personal and private information, and uses his credit card info and/or anything else to line his own pockets, and you have trouble. A hundred cops, Border Patrol, or TSA agents with that kind of access is courting disaster. I had one cop steal my and my hubby's SSN and he wreaked havoc with our credit and information - buying two vehicles that they came to our home to repossess, which was the first we knew about the thievery - that took two years for us to straighten out and get off our credit record. HE didn't have access to an ID scanner - all he did was swipe our medical insurance paperwork from a mutual employer. Imagine one like him - or a hundred - or a thousand; unhappy with their poor paychecks, having a drug or gambling problem, whatever. An enhanced ID doesn't protect your information or your privacy - it lays it out there for all to see. Forget that they know if you played Monopoly with your son on Tuesday - what they WILL know is far more damaging.

3) As for all of the many back roads connecting states, there are twice as many connecting Canada and Mexico with the US. My brother in ID goes to Canada frequently - and never even sees a border patrol agent. (There's a call in box, unmanned, at the side of most of the backroads. Few ever stop; especially if it is raining or snowing.) When I lived in New Mexico, my friend and I and our kids took a '47 panel truck back and forth across the border (everything was cheaper in Mexico) without ever being stopped in AZ, or ever even seeing anyone that even vaguely resembled a border agent. Sure, if you cross at a guarded and gated border, you will have to present an ID. But folks who are looking for a quick zip across the border - either to shop or to terrorize - aren't going to pay attention to manned and gated borders! So the argument that it will keep out the illegals or the terrorists, or even begin to control them, is specious.

The fact is that the more laws you make that are unenforceable, the more potential criminals you will create. And I do agree that with the purveyance of all of our information, helter-skelter, to any and everyone who solemnly swears that they won't use it for anything but the common good, is an invasion of our rights. Using 9/11 as the excuse for every invasive Patriot Act to reduce our freedoms and store our "verified" information is as mendacious as swooping into day care centers and arresting all participants on a false accusation by an embittered customer, while screaming"it's for the CHILDREN!". Using emotional rhetoric to make people 'feel better' while actually doing nothing to protect citizens' rights removes the presumption of innocence and in effect makes us all potentially guilty - all we need to have is a hitler or a bored bureaucrat (Ahem - Reno) looking to make a name for him/herself charge us with something, anything, based on whatever information that they can gather (whether it is fallacious or not, trumped-up or not) and our lives become a living hell.

But, don't worry - it can never happen to YOU. Believe THAT if you want to. You're not a terrorist, you're not a Weaver or a whacko Waco-ite, you would never abuse a child or anyone else's private info to make a profit. So of course no one will EVER use your information against YOU. Everyone is as decent, as honest, as god-fearing and law-abiding as you! That's just a silly Conspiracy Theory!

Uh -hunh.
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:22 AM
 
6,307 posts, read 7,188,206 times
Reputation: 8049
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
But, don't worry - it can never happen to YOU. Believe THAT if you want to. You're not a terrorist, you're not a Weaver or a whacko Waco-ite, you would never abuse a child or anyone else's private info to make a profit. So of course no one will EVER use your information against YOU. Everyone is as decent, as honest, as god-fearing and law-abiding as you! That's just a silly Conspiracy Theory!

Uh -hunh.
As I believe I have said earlier in this thread, there is a cost to be paid in the society in which we live. Maybe you can tell me, where exactly IS the line between what "they" can know and what "they" cannot?

Here in Washington State, the enhanced driver's license is *completely* voluntary. Don't want it? Don't get it. Same with a regular driver's license. You don't want "them" to know the information they need to make sure you are who you say you are? Don't get a license.

Now, I've got to get to work. (BTW, at a rather large corporation that knows a lot of information about a lot of people. )
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
15,194 posts, read 17,792,043 times
Reputation: 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
When the state is Kansas or Oklahoma, I think I have a fair grasp. When the state is France, Germany, Cambodia, Paraguy, Tanzania, New Zealand, you will have to excuse me if I think those hava a different status from the Kansas and Oklahoma that you yourself referred to in your post.

If you want to convince anybody here to agree with you that the status of Oklahoma as a state is the same as the status of Poland as a state, I'm going to go and take a nap, and let you have at it. Enjoy.
I see you completely ignored the rest of my post, in which I totally destroyed your "presumption of innocence" argument.

Par for the course with you these days, jtur. I used to think you were an honest debater, and one of the more respectable people here, despite our differences in opinion. Lately, you've been lowering yourself to the likes of MovingForward and Dukester. Will it be long before we see you posting HuffPo links without any commentary? Should I just put you on ignore now and save some time?
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
15,194 posts, read 17,792,043 times
Reputation: 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
OK, you raised the point, you must have some kind of a concept in your mind about how successful this measure will be. Of all the criminals from Canada that used to get through, just make a rough guess: how many of them will be stopped by requiring a passport? Pick the closest number: [ ] 99% [ ]80% [ ] 60% [ ] 40% [ ] 20% [ ] 1%.

Don't forget that the crime rate in the US is a lot higher than it is in Canada. For every criminal from Canada that can't get into the US, there will be several American criminals who can't go to Canada, and will have to stay home. How will that help?
The old "it's not the ultimately perfect solution, so it's not worth doing at all" argument. Just imagine if doctors and pharmaceutical companies followed the same philosophy... "Well, the cancer treatment isn't 100% effective, so let's just shelve it and look for something else."
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
15,194 posts, read 17,792,043 times
Reputation: 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
It's not about the border. He will know if you play monopoly with your kids.

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But this thread IS about the border. Can you stay on topic?
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,665 posts, read 72,028,682 times
Reputation: 35913
Fact: All the information about you that is collected by anybody is all being centralized in a single dossier.

Fact: The chip buried in your Enhanced ID provides instant access to that entire dossier.

Fact: Freedom of lifestyle in the USA is becoming increasingly inaccessible without presenting an enhanced ID at the door.

Fact: They can't implant it in the back of your neck, but they can make it awfully hard for you to get around without carrying t wherever you go, in your wallet.

Yes, you can be the Unabomber's neighbor in Montana. But I bet you'll crack, and drive a car and register to vote and have a bank account and a phone and health insurance. And voluntarily give everybody with a $1.98 scanner from eBay access to your dossier, in exchange for your "Liberty". If you don't care who knows all those things, why haven't you loaded them into your C-D profile?. What are you afraid of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger View Post
But this thread IS about the border. Can you stay on topic?
No it's not. Let me restate the question in the OP:

anyone wanna take a guess what the next restriction that will be put on us in post 9/11 America?

Last edited by jtur88; 06-02-2009 at 09:05 AM..
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
34,035 posts, read 32,603,766 times
Reputation: 50143
Quote:
Originally Posted by CleanCutHippie View Post
New U.S. border rules take effect for land and sea entry - CNN.com

anyone wanna take a guess what the next restriction that will be put on us in post 9/11 America? Maybe passports will be needed to travel state to state?
We're not in the North American Union and I hope we will never be. You should always need a passport to cross into any country anywhere from any other country.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,665 posts, read 72,028,682 times
Reputation: 35913
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
We're not in the North American Union and I hope we will never be. You should always need a passport to cross into any country anywhere from any other country.
But, the US and Canada are not countries. They are "states", like Germany and France. Just ask Swagger.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Back in New York
1,104 posts, read 3,334,333 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
You may be surprised to find that there are those out in the world who are not exactly flushed with pleasure when it comes to the United States--right or wrong. I'm not one to over blow that sort of thing and I'm generally willing to give the benefit of the doubt. But, at the same time, I don't think it is a good idea to pretend like there is nobody out there who is willing to 'take a swing' at the US if given a chance. After all, it has happened before.

I don't like it. I think it sucks. But, that's the way it is.
No doubt dude. I know there are ppl out there who despise the US. I just think Osama is being sold to us as a boogie man to make sure we stay scared of terrorism. Either they are leaving Osama out there so we stay scared or perhaps hes just being used as a scapegoat?

As far as the previous attacks on the US, its left much more questions then answers for me. The "official" story is BS so that leaves ppl like myself to question and lose complete faith in the government.
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