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Old 06-02-2009, 12:55 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,483 posts, read 10,049,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CleanCutHippie View Post
... to question and lose complete faith in the government.
Well, we are certainly in agreement on that one!
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,804,168 times
Reputation: 35909
Quote:
Originally Posted by CleanCutHippie View Post
No doubt dude. I know there are ppl out there who despise the US..

This is a more or less free country, which means we have the government that we put in place acting with the advice and consent of all of us. Bush, after three years in Iraq, was sent back to the White House by what could be made to look like a majority, even though everybody already knew what he had done and would do.

The rest of the world does not hate the American government, it hates the American people, because the American people, with malice aforethought, put the Bush administration in place to do our bidding.. As well as all the previous administrations.

Americans knew that our corporations would rape the world, with bomber support if necessary, to pile up more and more bling to pass briefly through out fingers on the way to the tables at our yard sales. And you wonder why they hate us.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:56 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,483 posts, read 10,049,456 times
Reputation: 9201
Oops

Last edited by ChrisC; 06-02-2009 at 02:08 PM.. Reason: double post
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:06 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,483 posts, read 10,049,456 times
Reputation: 9201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The rest of the world does not hate the American government, it hates the American people, because the American people, with malice aforethought, put the Bush administration in place to do our bidding.. As well as all the previous administrations.
I know that’s basically the way it is, but it shouldn’t be. I’ve screamed and cried on this forum more than once about it: dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid.

A man robs a store; he’s Mexican; all Mexicans are bad.
A man sets off a bomb; he’s Muslim; all Muslims are bad.
A man shoots a doctor; he’s Christian; all Christians are bad.
A counter girl shortchanges you at the store; she’s Italian; all Italians are in the mafia.
30% support this or that; they are Americans; all Americans support it.

This is the most elementary, third-grader logical fallacy in the book. A bright kindergartner could see the flaw. Yet, as you point out, it’s par for the course. If there is one thing that drives me batty, it’s this.

It's the type of mentality that allows a person to go into a village and kill every man, woman and child, and walk away feeling good about it because they were all the enemy.
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Old 06-02-2009, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Back in New York
1,104 posts, read 3,328,492 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
I know thatís basically the way it is, but it shouldnít be. Iíve screamed and cried on this forum more than once about it: dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid.

A man robs a store; heís Mexican; all Mexicans are bad.
A man sets off a bomb; heís Muslim; all Muslims are bad.
A man shoots a doctor; heís Christian; all Christians are bad.
A counter girl shortchanges you at the store; sheís Italian; all Italians are in the mafia.
30% support this or that; they are Americans; all Americans support it.

This is the most elementary, third-grader logical fallacy in the book. A bright kindergartner could see the flaw. Yet, as you point out, itís par for the course. If there is one thing that drives me batty, itís this.

It's the type of mentality that allows a person to go into a village and kill every man, woman and child, and walk away feeling good about it because they were all the enemy.
Right or wrong I just think this is part of human behavior. Hating the next guy to make yourself or your group feel better. I can think of very few ppl in my life, no matter what creed, color, ethnicity, sexual preference who do not dislike or stereotype a particular group. Heck I have even met ppl who don't like their own ethnicity because they feel they adhere to certain stereotypes.

Stereotypes are huge generalizations but they do exist, in part because there is some truth to them. Its just unfortunate that ppl focus on the negatives of ethnicities and races as opposed to the positives which each group also has.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:36 PM
 
6,307 posts, read 7,161,573 times
Reputation: 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The rest of the world does not hate the American government, it hates the American people, because the American people, with malice aforethought, put the Bush administration in place to do our bidding.. As well as all the previous administrations.
I have experienced quite the opposite in my day-to-day dealings with non-Americans. They actually have made it a point that they *don't* hate Americans, they hate some of the policies of our government. But, I suppose, like most of the rest of our dialogue on here, this just demonstrates that we view things very differently (and probably associate with VERY different types of people).

Just out of curiosity though, where did you get this notion of the worldwide concept of Americans' "malice aforethought"?
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:46 PM
 
6,307 posts, read 7,161,573 times
Reputation: 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
If you don't care who knows all those things, why haven't you loaded them into your C-D profile?. What are you afraid of?
If you cared to actually read what I have written, rather than flying off the handle because you don't understand why someone doesn't agree with you, you would see that I don't mind giving my information for certain concrete purposes. Getting suitable identification being one of them.

Since C-D doesn't require me to give any information, I choose not to give it.

I'm a firm believer in people knowing what they *need* to know. And, frankly, people like you don't *need* to know any more information than I choose to give you in what I write. (Which, admittedly, is quite a bit, but that's under my own discretion.)
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,804,168 times
Reputation: 35909
Quote:
Originally Posted by mishigas73 View Post

I'm a firm believer in people knowing what they *need* to know. And, frankly, people like you don't *need* to know any more information than I choose to give you in what I write.
But you're OK when the government "needs to know" your credit card transactions and your phone records and your internet browsing history and your medical records. You're OK when the government "needs" to scan whatever is in that chip in your enhanced ID. We have no way of knowing if the government is actually gathering all that data, but we know they can, and if they are, you trust them with it. Because they "need to know".

Your bottom line seems to be, of all the entities in this country, the government is the one people should trust the most.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:31 PM
 
6,307 posts, read 7,161,573 times
Reputation: 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post

Your bottom line seems to be, of all the entities in this country, the government is the one people should trust the most.
Did I say that? Or, have you just read that into my words because that's what you want to see?

There are a LOT of entities that I trust with my information. Why? Because in order to do what I want to do in life, I have to.

I want to practice law in this state. Therefore, I have to give the Bar Association a tremendous amount of information about myself.

I want to get the best medical care I can. Because of this, I need to give the doctor as much information as I can. As you probably well know, most of it is very sensitive.

I wanted to rent an apartment. Crap, I had to give the management company everything but my firstborn.

I wanted to go to law school and needed to borrow money for it. Need I tell you the sort of information I needed to give those companies?

I view the information that the government requires for travel documents or drivers licenses the same way that I view these other things. I may not particularly like it, but I understand why they require it.

Like I have asked you before (and have yet to get a response)...what is the alternative?
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:40 PM
 
339 posts, read 628,453 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mishigas73 View Post
Did I say that? Or, have you just read that into my words because that's what you want to see?

There are a LOT of entities that I trust with my information. Why? Because in order to do what I want to do in life, I have to.

I want to practice law in this state. Therefore, I have to give the Bar Association a tremendous amount of information about myself.

I want to get the best medical care I can. Because of this, I need to give the doctor as much information as I can. As you probably well know, most of it is very sensitive.

I wanted to rent an apartment. Crap, I had to give the management company everything but my firstborn.

I wanted to go to law school and needed to borrow money for it. Need I tell you the sort of information I needed to give those companies?

I view the information that the government requires for travel documents or drivers licenses the same way that I view these other things. I may not particularly like it, but I understand why they require it.

Like I have asked you before (and have yet to get a response)...what is the alternative?
The alternative is to move into the wilderness (in a remote area) and live off the land. That's it. And...I'm being serious. You will never get an answer to your question because, for the simple fact that they are responding, means that they are still "on the grid". But...being on CDF is fun for them, so they will give up their information to get a computer and internet access. And...for everything else that they like or makes their lives easier. The other "stuff" is all the government infrigning on their rights...until they need it or it works for them.
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