U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 06-11-2009, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,294 posts, read 20,187,710 times
Reputation: 13385

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, I’d say that for the populated areas of Quebec, certainly French settlers were there first almost everwhere. Anglo settlers only started appearing around the time of the American Revolution in the latter part of the the 18th century, more than 150 years after the first French settlements.

As for isolated fur traders, it is true that was an anglo fur trade presence in what is northern Quebec today as early as the late 1600s, but no settlements (either English or French) were established in that area. Even today, this huge area contains very few human settlements, and even fewer non-aboriginal human settlements.

In any event, I don’t consider the fact that the French settled Quebec quite some time before the English is justification for the anglo community not having any historic rights. Quebec’s anglos have a virtually complete community institutional network, some of which dates back a century or two, so certainly that is justification enough for the continued presence of these institutions.
Thanks. That's useful informaton on a topic about which I know less than I would like.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-11-2009, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,294 posts, read 20,187,710 times
Reputation: 13385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Anglo-Quebecers are still today at the top or very close to the top of the socio-economic ladder in the province, whereas Hispanics in the U.S. are near the bottom in most places. There is simply no comparison between a group that was for a long time a "dominant minority" (though I would agree that this status has now largely been taken away from Quebec’s anglos, some of the benefits of their past dominant status still remain) and often desperate people who have immigrated to a richer country than their own for basic survival reasons.
I agree with immigration part of this; but why should the Anglos be discriminated against when they have lived and worked in Quebec for generations? Unless I am mistaken, what is at work here is retribution and payback...

Quote:
As far as I know, there is no publicly-funded separate Spanish-language education system anywhere in the U.S. where you can go from kindergarten to PhD all in Spanish, is there?
No -- not that this is not very much in the cards for the future -- but why should there be? We are talking about an English-speaking culture with a relatively recent tidal wave of Spanish-speaking immigrants, not a side-by-side commonwealth with three hundred years of dual population...

Quote:
This exists in English in Quebec. As do publicly-funded English hospitals and other institutions.
Not saying there is anything wrong with this, but I just want things to be clear.
Nothing wrong with this, indeed. Glad you feel that way.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-11-2009, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Midwestern Dystopia
2,342 posts, read 2,968,690 times
Reputation: 2893
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post

Here's a hypothetical for you: let’s say the entire western half and eastern seaboard of the US became majority Spanish speaking. Let’s say the Spanish language was (by popular vote) made official. You live in the middle, still speaking English. What would your attitude be toward your English at that point? After all, it would be for the good of the entire nation if you learned Spanish, wouldn’t it? I’ll bet most of you would refuse to give it up... whether or not it is for the common ‘good.’ In fact, I’ll bet many of you would become quite militant about it. Sound familiar?
hypothetical for sure as the majority of canadians are in fact english speakers (native).

do you really think most americans think those dastardly quebecois should learn english? I mean, most of us don't really care and most of them are in fact bilingual anyway.

and you're completely overstating your case re: quebec, there are many english neighborhoods, most people grow up from birth bilingual and sometimes even tri-lingual.

bottom line: if you want to be sucessful in north america you learn english. if you want the opportunity as a quebec resident to work in ALB, BC, MAN, ONT, NS, PEI you'd better be able to speak english.

another thing you convenently gloss over is the fact that those people in Quebec are in fact legal residents and citizens of Canada. Nobody is cow-towing down to speak a foreign language for a bunch of illegals.

how's this for an example. why is it that announcments at Montreal Canadien games are in english and french but announcements in Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver etc. are only in english?

I've read some of you other posts and you're basically trying to use Quebec as a way to get people to accept illegal immigration in this country and having to learn spanish to apease a large illegal population. This is not the case in Canada. Never has been and never will. It's apples and oranges.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-11-2009, 06:35 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,417 posts, read 10,017,093 times
Reputation: 9153
MOD: Please delete. Double post...

Last edited by ChrisC; 06-11-2009 at 07:18 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-11-2009, 06:44 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,417 posts, read 10,017,093 times
Reputation: 9153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger View Post
hypothetical for sure as the majority of canadians are in fact english speakers (native).

do you really think most americans think those dastardly quebecois should learn english? I mean, most of us don't really care and most of them are in fact bilingual anyway.

and you're completely overstating your case re: quebec, there are many english neighborhoods, most people grow up from birth bilingual and sometimes even tri-lingual. .
Am I? Only 40.6% of Québéqois are bilingual. You must be thinking of south Louisiana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger View Post

bottom line: if you want to be sucessful in north america you learn english. if you want the opportunity as a quebec resident to work in ALB, BC, MAN, ONT, NS, PEI you'd better be able to speak english.

another thing you convenently gloss over is the fact that those people in Quebec are in fact legal residents and citizens of Canada. Nobody is cow-towing down to speak a foreign language for a bunch of illegals.

how's this for an example. why is it that announcments at Montreal Canadien games are in english and french but announcements in Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver etc. are only in english?

I've read some of you other posts and you're basically trying to use Quebec as a way to get people to accept illegal immigration in this country and having to learn spanish to apease a large illegal population. This is not the case in Canada. Never has been and never will. It's apples and oranges.

I've read some of you other posts and you're basically trying to use Quebec as a way to get people to accept illegal immigration in this country and having to learn spanish to apease a large illegal population.
Then either you haven’t been reading very carefully or you’ve been cherry picking.

I have stated in many posts that I am against illegal immigration in the USA. I have stated repeatedly that I support the US government functioning in English. I have stated repeatedly that residents of the USA should have the ability to speak English.

My main point of contention: The selective disregard of citizen rights (very often hypocritically) with a fanatical overextension of ‘English Only’ fervor. I know it hurts many of you (at least it seems to) that if a person knows a language (or languages) other than English, that person would choose to speak that other language before they would speak English. You get all bent out of shape about it.

THAT’s where I have a beef. I can be a resident of this country, speak perfect English, and choose to conduct my daily goings-on in any language I want. It’s none of your business. You have NO right to tell anyone in this country what to speak. Believe it or not, there are people out there who don’t like English all that much even though they speak it just fine. Personally, if I had a choice to speak English or another language I know on a daily basis, I’d pick the other languages every time. That includes Spanish. I speak English only by default: I was born here and that’s our language. Beyond that, no. I find English inefficient, illogical, and rather ugly. Blasphemy. Burn me at the stake.


Once more:

I am against illegal immigration.
I am for all residents in this country knowing English.
I am for the government conducting business in English.
I am A G A I N S T any restriction on language beyond that.
I’m against linguistic fascism.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-11-2009, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Midwestern Dystopia
2,342 posts, read 2,968,690 times
Reputation: 2893
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
I have stated in many posts that I am against illegal immigration in the USA. I have stated repeatedly that I support the US government functioning in English. I have stated repeatedly that residents of the USA should have the ability to speak English.

My main point of contention: The selective disregard of citizen rights (very often hypocritically) with a fanatical overextension of ‘English Only’ fervor. I know it hurts many of you (at least it seems to) that if a person knows a language (or languages) other than English, that person would choose to speak that other language before they would speak English. You get all bent out of shape about it.

THAT’s where I have a beef. I can be a resident of this country, speak perfect English, and choose to conduct my daily goings-on in any language I want. It’s none of your business. You have NO right to tell anyone in this country what to speak. Believe it or not, there are people out there who don’t like English all that much even though they speak it just fine. Personally, if I had a choice to speak English or another language I know on a daily basis, I’d pick the other languages every time. That includes Spanish. I speak English only by default: I was born here and that’s our language. Beyond that, no. I find English inefficient, illogical, and rather ugly. Blasphemy. Burn me at the stake.


Once more:

I am against illegal immigration.
I am for all residents in this country knowing English.
I am for the government conducting business in English.
I am A G A I N S T any restriction on language beyond that.
I’m against linguistic fascism.
I have never said people can't speak whatever language they want, or that hearing other languages bothers me. I can speak a foreign language myself so why would it bother me? If I could qualify for an EU passport I'd be gone in a heartbeat.

and I quote you """"I have stated repeatedly that residents of the USA should have the ability to speak English."""" end quote

but you also feel that Americans should learn Spanish if a job in america requires bilingual (read:Spanish) "Well, if that's REALLY the way it is (I don't agree, but let's assume), then whining about it isn't going to change it. Learn Spanish." end quote from this thread here
Americans and Another Language Besides English

you think everybody should know english and the gov't should conduct it's business in english but yet you think english only laws are not can't be enforced and are 'useless'.

""""And how are they enforcing these English only laws? Are they rounding up the dissenters who speak a heathen tongue with paddywagons, or what? Part of my point is that it's useless. It's wasting time and money. People are going to speak what they are going to speak. Forcing such matters has never been successful. English is the official language in my state. Hasn’t done jack."""" end quote
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-11-2009, 08:48 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,417 posts, read 10,017,093 times
Reputation: 9153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger View Post
but you also feel that Americans should learn Spanish if a job in america requires bilingual (read:Spanish) "Well, if that's REALLY the way it is (I don't agree, but let's assume), then whining about it isn't going to change it. Learn Spanish."
Yes, but you have to look at my reason for writing that. It was rather tongue-in-cheek in response to this 'sky is falling' attitude (prior to that post) about Spanish taking over the country. I was just trying to save someone from having a coronary. Notice the part where I said I didn't agree...

Now, I'm just as susceptible to being wrong as the next guy, but I have to say, I do not believe for a second that Spanish will replace English here in the US anytime soon or at all. I just do not see that happening unless it’s a linguistic shift over hundreds of years. I mean, really, think about it. We have most of the world speaking the ugly language! Why in the world would we stop speaking it now?

I think many folks that worry too much about this go wherever, hear someone speaking Spanish, have a knee jerk, and go all to pieces about it. They don't even know if the person actually speaks English or not. They just get steamed that the person is speaking Spanish (or whatever language). And I will continue to insist it's none of their business UNLESS that person is unable communicate in English when needed. That's a different matter.

I just wish the extremist types would think about and question whether or not they may be going out of fair and logical operating parameters with this 'English Only' thing. It can be taken to an unjust and unconstitutional extreme. I am an English only supporter up to the point it becomes unfair, unconstitutional, and venomous.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top