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Old 06-04-2009, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Orlando, Florida
43,858 posts, read 43,682,195 times
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I think each couple should make up their own minds one way or the other....with NO interference from friends or family.

 
Old 06-04-2009, 08:42 PM
 
Location: MS
4,039 posts, read 3,890,800 times
Reputation: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
That's a good plan, assuming you both live to be 70. But what if, God forbid, you discover you have inoperable cancer next year or die in a car accident? Is your wife supposed to end her life early just because you died prematurely? If not, what's her plan after you're gone?
She becomes the crazy old lady with a bunch of cats.

-Robert
 
Old 06-04-2009, 09:43 PM
 
Location: New York City
224 posts, read 544,311 times
Reputation: 218
Not everyone is designed to be a good parent. Fine. But still, I can't help but feel we're on this planet to AT THE VERY LEAST reproduce. To each his own, but "selfishness" and "immaturity" are the two words that come to mind when I think of a woman who chooses not have children. One woman told me, "we wouldn't be able to live the lifestyle we do, traveling all the time, etc."

I'm pretty open-minded and socially liberal, but come on folks, life can't JUST be about you enjoying it.

This is just my opinion. Everyone certainly has a right to do what they want, and I respect that right. At the same time, I kind of lose a little respect for the person who says, "I don't want kids." It's usually a spoiled brat, only-child type who is saying it.
 
Old 06-04-2009, 10:00 PM
 
6,307 posts, read 7,176,495 times
Reputation: 8049
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueensKid View Post
Not everyone is designed to be a good parent. Fine. But still, I can't help but feel we're on this planet to AT THE VERY LEAST reproduce. To each his own, but "selfishness" and "immaturity" are the two words that come to mind when I think of a woman who chooses not have children. One woman told me, "we wouldn't be able to live the lifestyle we do, traveling all the time, etc."
Interesting. So, if everyone isn't designed to be a good parent (or even if they are, they just don't want them), we all should still have kids?

Eek.

Aren't there enough unwanted, neglected and abused kids in the world?

But, even putting all of that aside, I still am fixated on your sentence there..."But still, I can't help but feel we're on this planet to AT THE VERY LEAST reproduce." So, let me see if I have this straight. The duty is to reproduce, and anything else we do to "better the world" is gravy? Is the basic purpose of our existence to reproduce, no matter what the consequences?

I also don't understand how you can say "to each his own", and in the same sentence use the words "selfish" and "immaturity". Nevermind the fact that many people don't want children for other reasons than "cramping their style", isn't the idea behind saying "to each his own", that you don't end the sentence in a personal judgment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QueensKid View Post
This is just my opinion. Everyone certainly has a right to do what they want, and I respect that right. At the same time, I kind of lose a little respect for the person who says, "I don't want kids." It's usually a spoiled brat, only-child type who is saying it.
Again, how can you say that you have any sort of respect for those who choose not to have children when in the same breath you make negative comments about them?

It seems to me that you either haven't spoken to many people who choose not to have kids, or choose not to open your mind to the idea that there are *numerous* reasons why people would come to this decision.

Either way though, you certainly have not demonstrated the "to each his own" stance in any way, shape or form.
 
Old 06-04-2009, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 9,154,782 times
Reputation: 9523
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueensKid View Post
I'm pretty open-minded and socially liberal, but come on folks, life can't JUST be about you enjoying it.
Why not?

I'd far rather see an intelligent, conversant couple having fun and loving and caring for each other, working hard at what they love to do, than listen to the endless maundering of the mothers-are-SO-superior-and-special crowd, who shove their brats into every social situation, adult or not. Then there's those who think that their darlings are the most brilliant and wonderful people in the whole wide world (and say so repeatedly, as if they were trying to convince themselves) when in fact they are nothing but sniveling, rude, intrusive brats; or who shove not only pictures of their latest procreation, but the squirming little thing into your arms, insisting that EVERYone should be as enamored as they are. Or the self-inflicted mom at Wal Mart letting her little dumplings crawl all over everything, take the bikes out of the racks and leave them everywhere, or climbing into peoples' carts, all the while squalling at the top of their lungs - and then SIM looks at you, simpers helplessly, and says - "I jist doan know how to control 'em!"

Having babies doesn't make you a qualified member of the human race, doesn't make you any better or any worse or any different than anyone else. "Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it" - and so do rabbits, rats and mice. But at least THEY have the common decency to raise them where they are not in your face, waving pictures, demanding endless flattering compliments, or better parking.

BTW, I DON'T love all my kids (or foster kids) equally, any more than I love my friends equally. Each one is an individual, with their own brains, emotions, ideas, and ideals. I love them each for their separate qualities, their personalities, and their independence.
 
Old 06-04-2009, 10:18 PM
 
6,307 posts, read 7,176,495 times
Reputation: 8049
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
Or the self-inflicted mom at Wal Mart letting her little dumplings crawl all over everything, take the bikes out of the racks and leave them everywhere, or climbing into peoples' carts, all the while squalling at the top of their lungs - and then SIM looks at you, simpers helplessly, and says - "I jist doan know how to control 'em!"
Great post SCGranny! I just wanted to quote this so I can add one of my favorite stories that my mom tells.

Gosh, this must have happened about 20 years ago, when I was in my teens and my brother was in his early 20's. While the two of us and dad were on a skiing trip, my mom went her own way, down to Club Med in Mexico. On her plane flight from NY, she had the good fortune of sitting next to a mother and her (about) 7 year old daughter. From what my mom said, this kid was uncontrollable. Loud, obnoxious, not giving a hoot as to who she was disturbing, and dear mom doing absolutely nothing about it.

Apparently, it got to the point where, after quite a few not-so-subtle hints, my mom requested to move seats. This woman, instead of apologizing to my mother for her daughter having disturbed her enough so she had to move, actually said "gee, you must not have kids".

My mom, to her credit, just smiled and went on her way to her new seat.

Yeah, EVERYONE in the world should procreate.
 
Old 06-04-2009, 10:38 PM
 
Location: The Midst of Insanity
3,225 posts, read 6,147,533 times
Reputation: 3209
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueensKid View Post
Not everyone is designed to be a good parent. Fine. But still, I can't help but feel we're on this planet to AT THE VERY LEAST reproduce. To each his own, but "selfishness" and "immaturity" are the two words that come to mind when I think of a woman who chooses not have children. One woman told me, "we wouldn't be able to live the lifestyle we do, traveling all the time, etc."

I'm pretty open-minded and socially liberal, but come on folks, life can't JUST be about you enjoying it.

This is just my opinion. Everyone certainly has a right to do what they want, and I respect that right. At the same time, I kind of lose a little respect for the person who says, "I don't want kids." It's usually a spoiled brat, only-child type who is saying it.
Have you read any of the reasons why that people listed for not wanting children? For many, it's about much more than a crimp in a lifestyle. It's an honest assessment about what's best for two people and a choice.

Do you really think that people who don't really like children, who are financially or otherwise unable to take care of them, should still bring them into the world for the sake of procreation? You said yourself that some people are not designed to be good parents-so should they still breed? Don't you think it's better off if they didn't?

How can say you're open-minded and liberal and you respect someone's decision, then say in the next sentence you lose respect for some who makes this decision for their life????

As if there aren't enough unwanted children already?

I'm sure many childless couples don't grow up-but I know quite a few people who have kids and they never really grew up themselves. People are people. I don't think one needs to have a baby in order to learn responsibility and sacrifice and commitment-example, my husband learned these things in the military and I learned them when he was overseas and also in some personal experiences in my life. I'm sure others have their own stories.

For the record, neither me nor my husband are only children, and we both come from very undesirable backgrounds-definately not spoiled brat types! I don't understand what this would have to do in one's decison in this matter.
 
Old 06-04-2009, 10:49 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
2,657 posts, read 7,029,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenTap View Post
The meaning of life is to create life. Period.
::massive eyeroll::

Yeah. Whatever.

I guess Mother Theresa never had much "meaning" in her life.

Or .. what was his name? That guy who preached Salvation and hung on a cross to take all our sins away ... can't think of his name .... ::snaps fingers:: Oh! yes! JESUS! Him. Gosh, I guess his life never had "meaning" because he didn't leave His seed behind.

Wow. And you have created life? Well, I hope a recessive gene for intelligence has been passed to your kid. It certainly doesn't seem to be a dominant one in your DNA

Last edited by silverwing; 06-04-2009 at 11:35 PM..
 
Old 06-04-2009, 11:11 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
2,657 posts, read 7,029,346 times
Reputation: 4295
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueensKid View Post
..life can't JUST be about you enjoying it.
<snork> I hope you realize what you are inferring. But maybe that explains some of the parents, kids in tow, who don't really look like they are enjoying life Heh.

I'm with Team Moosketeer, all the way, in applauding how sensibly she has explained the nature of being childfree. I threw in another green dot to what deserves to be a large pile.
 
Old 06-05-2009, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 21,586,999 times
Reputation: 19859
It never ceases to amaze me exactly how smug and superior some parents can be towards those of us who make a considered and thoughtful decision not to have children.

The idea that we are all eternal adolescents with no sense of social responsibility and no maturity is absolutely ludicrous.
Most non parents I know are actually far more active with charities and good causes, socially involved than parents who do not usually have the time or the inclination.

Many parents I know only seem to have one subject of conversation : their kids , and it seems to be the extent of their world to the detriment of anything else society has to offer.

I for one am an active volunteer with many charities, am politically involved and engaged, I attend lectures , go to the theatre, and various other activities which in my opinion are as valid as taking your kids to the park or watching TV with them.



I even baby-sit neighbour's kids to help my recently widowed neighbour which does not sound that selfish considering I find children rather dull on the whole. And exhausting. I could be doing else during tohose hours but I chose not to. I don't gain anything out of it whatsoever ....


I don't know many adolescents or parents who are as involved as myself and other non parents.

As for the idea that the purpose of life is to procreate I hoped we had evolved beyond this rather strictly biological function and rather archaic definition of the meaning of life... To be honest if the human race was to be extinguished in the next few generations because people stopped having children, it would not give me terrible nightmares. We are after all simply another specie in a rather diverse eco-system.

The meaning of life to me is to love, be loved, learn new things every day , be as good a human being as I can , laugh, feel, travel and generally enjoy life whilst hopefully leaving this planet a better place than when I found it . I might not succeed but I will certainly give it a good try.

For some people all of the above involves having children. Not for me. Being child-less is my decision and nobody else's beeswax quite frankly.

Having no children does not make me less mature or even more selfish. It means I lead my life a different way than people who do decide to have children. Period. No better and no worse. There are wonderful parents and likewise non parents. There are horrible paerents , likewise with clid-less people. People are people. Having kids makes no difference to your moral worthiness.


But at least I am honest enough and have enough self-knowledge to realise that I am not cut out to be a mother a decision I wish many parents had been honest to make before they sprogged their little Angels.



Every time I go out anywhere all I see it irritated abusive parents who scream at their kids and have no idea to control them , hardly a great advert for parenthood if you ask me.

Most kids I meet are ill behaved, have no manners ( why would they when parents abnegate their responsibilities and never say "no" ) , are rude , noisy and generally disruptive because parents just refuse to be parents and teach them better ( I don't blame the kids but the parents are definitely responsible).

People who are happy to leave their kids watch TV for hours on end because playing with them would be too much bother, parents who let their children dictate what they eat etc...


Good parents are in my experience a seriously shrinking minority and I wish those appalling parents had thought a little longer before having children who obviously do nothing but irritate and bore them beyond all measure.


I wish kids got the parents they deserve, parents who do really care for not only their physical well being but their education, and who want to inculcate into them good citizenship and social responsibilities.


Kids seems to be to many people a sort of vanity accessory , a must-have of biological pride , something which you are "supposed" to have ( heaven forbid anyone should think you un-natural if you decline this great privilege, better have babies must not disappoint societal expectation , this simply would not do ) rather than people we truly love and respect as human beings .

I find it really sad.

Being child-less is often the only logical and right choice for some of us , and those of us who do not bow to societal pressure and smug bullying do not need to be despised or even pitied for a choice which is ultimately not only a very personal one but one which is often the most important and meaningful one you will ever get to make in your life.

I don't hate children. I don't wish them harm. In fact I want all children to be loved and looked after properly.

For example I will never understand why anyone really must have a kid of their own flesh and blood when orphanages are full to the brim with poor little ones whose only crime was to be born to people who did not want them in the first place.

Anyone who loves children and wants to raise them surely should have no problem raising another person's child. A child is a child , a small vulnerable little human being who needs nothing but love and a great start in life. An innocent life in need of guidance and love.

I will never get this obsession with the idea that only a child sharing your own DNA is worthy of your love, affection and nurturing.

To me the true heroes in our society are people who adopt and Foster parents ( Foster parents especially who selflessly will raise children after children and hand them back to their parents that must be the hardest thing of all).

Until all the orphanages are empty ( which sadly they never will be ) why does anyone really need to procreate ? Because we must carry on our own bloodline ? How selfish is that exactly.



I remain puzzled. My Fiance and I would always adopt first before even contemplating having a child of our own. I could not bear the idea of bringing a new life to this planet whilst other children are deprived of love and care because their DNA is not good enough .

The funny thing is I have actually now heard quite a few parents who have said that though they adore their children , in hindsight they would not have had them had they known what parenthood was truly like. Of course they have to whisper those things as they might end up being stoned ( verbally if not physically) for daring to utter such un-natural dissidence from the "parent party -line"....

And incur lectures and verbal wrath and condemnation for their honesty .

Last edited by Mooseketeer; 06-05-2009 at 05:58 AM..
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