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Old 07-29-2009, 11:52 PM
 
549 posts, read 515,882 times
Reputation: 851

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Hate to say it, but it may be good to bring a little bit of reality to people for a while.
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:19 AM
 
Location: a nation with hope
13,155 posts, read 16,876,580 times
Reputation: 5009
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The problem is -- it was the uninsured who were demanding the government get them some health insurance plan -- so why don't they want to pay for it?

The idea that people should pay for something they expect to have is the part of Obama's plan I could support - or who else is supposed to pay for it? Those who already pay for their own plan? That makes no sense.

In fact I think it's time that more start contributing to health care. Many people pay absolutely nothing at all and when they become sick, they are the first to run to the hospital for their free treatments. Now they should get to help pay.
You're absolutely correct that those who demand coverage should also be paying for it. There should, perhaps, be some sort of means test so that the uninsured who say they "can't afford" it can be identified as truly not being able to afford it. There are many who could afford it if they chose to do so by making wiser choices in how they spend their income. Sometimes in life - in fact, frequently - one has to make hard choices.

I don't believe free health care is "a right", though I do think it's a moral obligation for society to take care of those who cannot pay for it themselves. In which case, if we pass universal health care on the basis that everyone is entitled to it, then the same rules apply to rationing. There can be no rationing of care based on state of health, age, disability or anything else.
Everyone is entitled, then everyone is entitled to the best that is available.

A lower standard of living will, indeed, bring people face to face with reality. Whether that is a good thing depends on how people handle it. Will they still be law abiding and make do with what they have, or will they feel they are entitled to the neighbors' things?
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:47 AM
 
44,577 posts, read 43,115,486 times
Reputation: 14376
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
You're absolutely correct that those who demand coverage should also be paying for it. There should, perhaps, be some sort of means test so that the uninsured who say they "can't afford" it can be identified as truly not being able to afford it. There are many who could afford it if they chose to do so by making wiser choices in how they spend their income. Sometimes in life - in fact, frequently - one has to make hard choices.

I don't believe free health care is "a right", though I do think it's a moral obligation for society to take care of those who cannot pay for it themselves. In which case, if we pass universal health care on the basis that everyone is entitled to it, then the same rules apply to rationing. There can be no rationing of care based on state of health, age, disability or anything else.
Everyone is entitled, then everyone is entitled to the best that is available.

A lower standard of living will, indeed, bring people face to face with reality. Whether that is a good thing depends on how people handle it. Will they still be law abiding and make do with what they have, or will they feel they are entitled to the neighbors' things?
This last statement made me think about the Great Depression. There was alot of crime during the Depression, particularly from the mafia. I wonder what will happen now.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,045 posts, read 18,263,811 times
Reputation: 15568
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The problem is -- it was the uninsured who were demanding the government get them some health insurance plan -- so why don't they want to pay for it?

The idea that people should pay for something they expect to have is the part of Obama's plan I could support - or who else is supposed to pay for it? Those who already pay for their own plan? That makes no sense.

In fact I think it's time that more start contributing to health care. Many people pay absolutely nothing at all and when they become sick, they are the first to run to the hospital for their free treatments. Now they should get to help pay.
I would respectfully venture to say anyone taking this position has a pretty good job and some assets. I don't think that those who are fortunately comfortable, even moderately, have the slightest clue (no offense, honest) of what it is like for the millions and millions who are working min-wage jobs (some more than one, like my young-adult kids) who can barely pay rents that are skyrocketing, utilities that are skyrocketing, and food costs that are climbing out of sight. It's not about "lazy" people who "don't want to pay" for healthcare and want to have other people pick up their tab---they honestly CANNOT AFFORD IT!! The premiums are ridiculous, and more and more are getting less and less for what they pay for. Read this interview with a former CEO of CIGNA who resigned from his position b/c he was sickened by the fraud and the Wall St. profits off of the working class (for those who think Moyers too liberal, try to look past his part in the conversation and focus on the answers given by Mr. Wendell Potter:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

Health coverage in our country is, very unfortunately, a scandal...and heaven forbid that those who have jobs with health insurance lose them.

Oh, and by the way, regarding those outrageous healthcare costs...a dermatologist I know gets $500/hour.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:53 AM
 
Location: In the real world!
2,178 posts, read 8,222,930 times
Reputation: 2772
I have never been a big spender. I never had to have the biggest or the best. I have always been happy with just the basics and could make do just fine, continuing to live that way. I have always cooked at home, only eating out every several months as a treat for a special occasion. My house is modest, I buy used cars and shop a lot at second hand stores. I have no problem buying store brands at the grocery store..

I do know people that would feel cheated/disgraced if they had to lower their standard of living and buy store brands to cut costs.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic east coast
5,119 posts, read 9,416,029 times
Reputation: 9423
IMHO, New England Girl speaks the truth. Too many hard-working Americans, 50 million of us, need help to have health insurance. Not looking for a hand-out, but a hand-up.

Insurance premiums have increased to the point that people are choosing food or health insurance...it's a shame and we'll see how the insurance lobby combats the current health care over-haul and tries to defeat it...protecting their billion dollar profits and making sure there are no healthy changes for the American populace.

Right now there's a huge public relations campaign underway sponsored by the insurance lobby to spread lies and deceit about the proposed health care bill...and unfortunately, it seems to be working...
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:43 AM
 
Location: a nation with hope
13,155 posts, read 16,876,580 times
Reputation: 5009
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDolphin View Post
IMHO,
Right now there's a huge public relations campaign underway sponsored by the insurance lobby to spread lies and deceit about the proposed health care bill...and unfortunately, it seems to be working...
OT, but better read it for yourself, Little Dolph. It's not quite as you say, "a huge public relations campaign ...to spread lies and deceit".

Read the bill and then ask yourself whether the bill, as proposed, is what you want for yourself and everybody else. It has some good provisions, but there's a lot in it that is unacceptable. I say, let's take the good, enact it (such as portbility of coverage, no exclusion for pre-existing conditions, etc.) and throw out the rest.
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Old 07-31-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,045 posts, read 18,263,811 times
Reputation: 15568
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I feel like I am in limbo because I haven't finished college yet. My concern is finding a job.
If you can start any kind of job part time while you're in college, you'll at least have that income when you get your degree. If necessary, if the economy is even worse then, you can probably get another PT job until you find something in your field. Sometimes I think two PT jobs are better than one FT job. The only problem is that the PT jobs don't pay well. But they can provide a bottom line income if the economy tanks even further. Healthcare jobs (direct care, not admin) probably the most secure. Good luck to you, you will make it!
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Old 07-31-2009, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,045 posts, read 18,263,811 times
Reputation: 15568
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
OT, but better read it for yourself, Little Dolph. It's not quite as you say, "a huge public relations campaign ...to spread lies and deceit".

Read the bill and then ask yourself whether the bill, as proposed, is what you want for yourself and everybody else. It has some good provisions, but there's a lot in it that is unacceptable. I say, let's take the good, enact it (such as portbility of coverage, no exclusion for pre-existing conditions, etc.) and throw out the rest.
Can you give us a Web link to the proposed bill? I haven't heard anything concrete from our Pres. It seems like we will all, in the end, be forced to purchase our own insurance whether or not we can afford it (believe me, most without it today cannot) so that the admin can boast the the US is "100% covered."

Michael Moore really did us a disservice in some ways. With his anti-gov't "fringe" approach and the title of his film, he turned many people off to his message in his courageous documentary. I wish someone would re-make the film so that ALL people can really understand the underlying structure of this healthcare crisis in our country. The lobbyists are spending unbelievable amounts to discredit him as a weirdo liberal. If a respected celebrity had narrated that film, it might have made a difference. With our adolescent politics and the scandalous private interests of the insurance industry, nothing fair and equitable can never occur in our country....other advanced countries would never stand for it. Americans are easily gullible and believe the media quoting the politicians. It's also "anti American" to question the motives of our politicians and private industry (= profit, not service).
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:17 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
I would respectfully venture to say anyone taking this position has a pretty good job and some assets. I don't think that those who are fortunately comfortable, even moderately, have the slightest clue (no offense, honest) of what it is like for the millions and millions who are working min-wage jobs (some more than one, like my young-adult kids) who can barely pay rents that are skyrocketing, utilities that are skyrocketing, and food costs that are climbing out of sight. It's not about "lazy" people who "don't want to pay" for healthcare and want to have other people pick up their tab---they honestly CANNOT AFFORD IT!! The premiums are ridiculous, and more and more are getting less and less for what they pay for. Read this interview with a former CEO of CIGNA who resigned from his position b/c he was sickened by the fraud and the Wall St. profits off of the working class (for those who think Moyers too liberal, try to look past his part in the conversation and focus on the answers given by Mr. Wendell Potter:

Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

Health coverage in our country is, very unfortunately, a scandal...and heaven forbid that those who have jobs with health insurance lose them.

Oh, and by the way, regarding those outrageous healthcare costs...a dermatologist I know gets $500/hour.

Many of the uninsured don't bat an eye at a $100 monthly cell phone payment, they don't have a problem with plunking down $400 for the newest iPod. Many buy new cars and think a $300 a month payment is pretty great. They'll camp out waiting for the newest $600 game player to be sold. A pop music or rap concert might be $100 and they think nothing of buying tickets -- yet they don't believe they should have to pay a single dime toward their own health care. They don't want to pay the doctor for an office visit, nor do they want to pay insurance premiums.
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