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Old 06-18-2009, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Oviedo, Fl formerly from the Philly Burbs!
1,012 posts, read 2,357,483 times
Reputation: 365

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
That statistic has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue you extracted from it. Let me paint you a picture. 50% of the population lives in poverty, with barely enough to live on. One percent has almost all of the money, and pays no taxes because it's all in Cayman Island banks. The remaining 49% pays all the income taxes, because they make over $200 a day. See, it has nothing to do with those nasty imaginary entitlement monsters that you look for under your bed every night before you go to sleep. About 20% of all earners are retirees, who barely squeak by on their tax-free benefits. Another 20% is occasional workers (such as students) who have to file to get back the interest-free loan that the government helped itself to at gunpoint as withholding tax. The rest of them are young minimum-wage families, whose personal exemptions exceeded their income. NONE of them are well-off wage earners who have figured out how to make you pay their taxes for them. Except those with Cayman Island Bank accounts, so if you want to look under your bed for goblins tonight, see if you see any Cayman Island bank books under there. And stop blaming it on single moms.

SIGH....let me fix your stats....(or you can actually post links to your 'facts')

From source www.taxfoundation.org - a non partisan org.

Quote (most recent stats...I realize 2006 is a little dated)
"In 2006, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 39.9 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 22.1 percent of adjusted gross income"

Hmm...the top 1% of earners in this country in California alone pay more taxes than the bottom 50% in the entire country
You can find that data here
The Tax Foundation - Summary of Federal Individual Income Tax Data by State, 2006

I cannot argue that 50% have it very tough at 30K or less per year in income source here
The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data
but as a previous poster suggests, they are out stealing food? I doubt it...I don't see headlines that say "grocery store robbed, criminal states..I needed to feed my family".

But I concede those folks have it tough, and I will also add that, our system has , as another poster suggests, gotten them addicted to the 'life' of welfare. And I have said previously, that lifestyle strips people of their dignity and self worth and makes them feel less than able, creating and evironment of generation after generation that just 'cannot' perform because they are told by the establishment that they NEED the gevernment to survive, and when you are told something long enough, and often enough, you believe it.

I have no doubt that there are monies escaping taxation by being in the Caymans or elsewhere. Have I not stated more than once that our Tax structure here has led to the corruption of our Capitalist system? Leading to the fault of the free market, making it unable to function as a free market by the very nature of Corporations being forced to make decisions (and BAD ones) by making them based on TAX incentives or penalties? You have proven my point in part here.

I will vehemently argue with you that quote"One percent has almost all of the money, and pays no taxes because it's all in Cayman Island banks." You need to prove that out to me. I believe I have , in part, proven you somewhat mistaken. I will concede partially.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,603,351 times
Reputation: 35875
You were correct to criticize my sttistics. Originally I had laid it out as a hypothetical scenario, but then I discovered that it was so close to reality, that I edited out the word hypothetical. and I should have just changed it to hyperbolic. But the whole thing was intended to be a cynical exaggeration to point out simple truths. Namely, that the real thieves obstructing the well-being of American workers are those at the rich end of the spectrum, not the poor end. My post was a response to Texdav, who seemed keen on blaming our plight on all the poor people who rightfully pay no taxes, instead of the rich ones who find ways to evade taxes. The fly in your statistical ointment is "adjusted gross income", which in the case of many rich people, is only a small fraction of their actual income. whjich is not counted in your 22%. A huge chunk of their income is from capital gains, on which they pay a lower tax than the marginal rate of a WalMart greeter.

Last edited by jtur88; 06-18-2009 at 09:04 AM..
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:46 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,523,427 times
Reputation: 1573
When America became a nation of thieves?
Probably right after having watched Oliver Stone's Wall Street, where America's future CEO's took Gordon Gekko's words at heart: "Greed is good."
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Old 06-18-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Oviedo, Fl formerly from the Philly Burbs!
1,012 posts, read 2,357,483 times
Reputation: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You were correct to criticize my sttistics. Originally I had laid it out as a hypothetical scenario, but then I discovered that it was so close to reality, that I edited out the word hypothetical. and I should have just changed it to hyperbolic. But the whole thing was intended to be a cynical exaggeration to point out simple truths. Namely, that the real thieves obstructing the well-being of American workers are those at the rich end of the spectrum, not the poor end. My post was a response to Texdav, who seemed keen on blaming our plight on all the poor people who rightfully pay no taxes, instead of the rich ones who find ways to evade taxes. The fly in your statistical ointment is "adjusted gross income", which in the case of many rich people, is only a small fraction of their actual income. whjich is not counted in your 22%. A huge chunk of their income is from capital gains, on which they pay a lower tax than the marginal rate of a WalMart greeter.

But can you argue that a part of the flaw is the tax structure is forcing businesses to make corrupt decisions? (actually no one actually FORCES someone to make a decision, but it is definitely a major influence). Why would you want to pay40% tax if you didn't have to? Why not consider it a Capital gains (by using creative accounting) if it gets you a tax beneifit , even if it is detrimental to the overall accounting structure of the firm? See my point here?

Then, you still have the lower fifty percent, the Great Society, dragging the rest down....(not all of course...but there is a goodly percentage of lazy slugs)

I am not one to state an all or nothing argument because neither would be true...but, there is truth to both.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,603,351 times
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There are people in our country who throw around words like "lazy slugs" without regard to how much work they do to earn what little they have, or are willing to do to earn more. I discount their opinions. For example, I don't think stay-at-home moms are lazy slugs. But women who plant their kids in daycare to get paid as a telemarketer are more likely to be lazy slugs.

Every society, past present and future, as a mathematical certainty, will have its "lower fifty percent". You may think whatever you like of them.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Oviedo, Fl formerly from the Philly Burbs!
1,012 posts, read 2,357,483 times
Reputation: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
There are people in our country who throw around words like "lazy slugs" without regard to how much work they do to earn what little they have, or are willing to do to earn more. I discount their opinions. For example, I don't think stay-at-home moms are lazy slugs. But women who plant their kids in daycare to get paid as a telemarketer are more likely to be lazy slugs.

Every society, past present and future, as a mathematical certainty, will have its "lower fifty percent". You may think whatever you like of them.
You misunderstand me...I am not discounting the lower fifty percent at all. I already said, life is tough for them (by the way, I am one of those stay at home moms..lol. I do work part time while the kid is in school) What I am saying, is there is a portion of the Welfare society (I affectionately and sarcastically refer to as the Great Society) that has become dependent on that welfare check, is more than able to work, and refuses to do so. They are happier to sit and collect my money and do nothing rather than to go out and work. Whatever kind of work, I don't care..I appreciate ALL work.

My theory is that when you pay someone , however meager a pittance to stay home, and be a 'slug' , then you strip them of their human dignity and pride, which begins a cycle of depression, lack of self worth, they fail to then raise their children like they should, and you get a whole generation after generation of people, who are TOLD by the government that they cannot make it on their own.....

I was not referring to the whole fifty percent as lazy slugs...I would never do such a thing. I point out to my daughter all the time...see this worker or that worker,...we would not have this service or that building or whatever related thing and teach her to appreciate all that people do in this Country!
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Annandale, VA
9,455 posts, read 7,605,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
How and why did America become a nation of thieves? Houses and cars are always locked. Theft protection and security systems are everywhere. Nobody is taken at their word. Enhanced IDs. Twice as many police per capita as a couple of generations ago. One out of 50 adult males in jail, one out of 20 was or will be.

And this is "our way of life" our soldiers are fighting to defend? How did things go so horribly wrong?

Previous generations fought wars to protect what they own. Today's youth never had to do anything to earn citizenship and thus feel they are "owed" a living. Parents of the 1960's up to today want to give their children everything they never had and so when the kids grow up they don't understand why the gravy train ended. They end up taking from others.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,603,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrotrosie View Post

My theory is that when you pay someone , however meager a pittance to stay home, and be a 'slug' , then you strip them of their human dignity and pride, which begins a cycle of depression, lack of self worth, they fail to then raise their children like they should, and you get a whole generation after generation of people, who are TOLD by the government that they cannot make it on their own.....
!
You are compleely wrong about that. Here's the proof: When people turn 65, we pay them to stay home. None lose their dignity and pride, none begin a cycle of lack of self-worth.

The people you are talking about have been stripped of their dignity long before the government or society begins to pay any attention to them. It is very easy to go into a grade school and predict which ones they will be. By that age, they have already lost their dignity and their pride.

Some run afoul of the law. They then get put through a system that is designed primarily to strip them of their dignity and pride. Two million Americans are getting that basic training as I write. When they are finished, they will be denied employment opportunity, no matter how skilled or diligent.

America has more ex-convicts than any other country in the world. We also have a shocking number of people who have lost their dignity and their pride. Just coincidence, right?
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Old 06-18-2009, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Oviedo, Fl formerly from the Philly Burbs!
1,012 posts, read 2,357,483 times
Reputation: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You are compleely wrong about that. Here's the proof: When people turn 65, we pay them to stay home. None lose their dignity and pride, none begin a cycle of lack of self-worth.

The people you are talking about have been stripped of their dignity long before the government or society begins to pay any attention to them. It is very easy to go into a grade school and predict which ones they will be. By that age, they have already lost their dignity and their pride.

Some run afoul of the law. They then get put through a system that is designed primarily to strip them of their dignity and pride. Two million Americans are getting that basic training as I write. When they are finished, they will be denied employment opportunity, no matter how skilled or diligent.

America has more ex-convicts than any other country in the world. We also have a shocking number of people who have lost their dignity and their pride. Just coincidence, right?
No....when someone turns 65 and RETIRES..they have EARNED it..there is a big difference there. You cannot reasonably expect that to be an equal analogy.

I will go out on a limb, and say the ones you are referring to 'in grade school' that you can pick out, are the ones I have already mentioned, being multigeneraltion welfare recipients who are not raising their children, and creating a cyclical issue. These are those children I am referring to. Not being raised by their welfare parents and becoming a welfare recipient before they are even out of school...you have proven my point for me! By the time they get to prison, they are career criminals. The law here is too lenient, and the jails too overcrowded, so should one actually get to jail and spend actual time there, it's too late anyway, for most. Many have gotten there, thanks to the socio-economics of welfare. Their dignity and pride was stripped long before your so called basic training in that. That's my opinion, anyway.

Last edited by Parrotrosie; 06-18-2009 at 10:35 PM..
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,603,351 times
Reputation: 35875
Your so-called "lazy slugs" also think they deserve it, but according to your thinking , that does not immunize them from swirling down the sewer of indignity. The mere fact of "having no work to do" is, in your view, fatal. I proved you wrong.

SOME of the people who go into prison had already been stripped of their self esteem. ALL of the people coming out have been. If you think America can become a better place by minimizing the number of people who are stripped of their dignity, why are you such a staunch supporter of an exploding penal industry that systematically sets out to do nothing except strip record numbers of people of their dignity? And then release them iback nto an environment in which it is virtually impossible to gain back any self esteem. Their families have been estranged, their property has been forfeited, their job skills are refused by employers, What do you expect?

Last edited by jtur88; 06-19-2009 at 12:14 AM..
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