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Old 06-15-2009, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,666 posts, read 71,897,044 times
Reputation: 35911

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighPlainsDrifter73 View Post
If these tasks are not handled because of insufficient staffing, we can be sued.
Thank you for explaining why so many people need to work all day. To avoid litigation. Very productive. If you and a lawyer both stayed home, we'd break even. No gain or loss of productivity.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,277,905 times
Reputation: 944
To relieve the misfortunes of our fellow creatures is concurring with the Deity; it is godlike; but, if we provide encouragement for laziness, and supports for folly, may we not be found fighting against the order of God and nature, which perhaps has appointed want and misery as the proper punishments for, and cautions against, as well as necessary consequences of, idleness and extravagance? Whenever we attempt to amend the scheme of Providence, and to interfere with the government of the world, we had need be very circumspect, lest we do more harm than good.

-Benjamen Franklin
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,666 posts, read 71,897,044 times
Reputation: 35911
Well, let's live dangerously and "relieve the misfortunes of our fellow creatures" anyway, and see what happens. It couldn't be any worse.
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,277,905 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Well, let's live dangerously and "relieve the misfortunes of our fellow creatures" anyway, and see what happens. It couldn't be any worse.
It could get worse, far worse.

and another great quote by a great man.

"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
-- Benjamin Franklin
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Cold Frozen North
1,928 posts, read 4,535,989 times
Reputation: 1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Thank you for explaining why so many people need to work all day. To avoid litigation. Very productive. If you and a lawyer both stayed home, we'd break even. No gain or loss of productivity.
If I stayed home, who would pay my bills. I would gladly stay home if someone would write checks for my mortgage, car payment and other bills. I have yet to receive offers on that. Maybe my mortgage company could just declare my mortgage paid - I would love it. None of this kind of stuff is going to happen. Perhaps you are independently wealthy, I'm not and I need to earn a living. And besides, I need a challenge in my life and my job creates that for me. There are actually people who like their jobs - like me.

Besides, part of my job involves the safeguarding of our customers personal information. If someone like me wasn't keeping an eye on things, your social security number and credit card information might be hacked. I don't think you as a customer would appreciate that.
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:34 AM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
16,534 posts, read 33,568,330 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Miu thought I was saying we should have only one person to do the job of 100. What I was saying is that it make no sense to develop highly mechanized industry and put 200 people to work to do the work of 100.
With your solution, it's only the employers to gain if they only need 1/100th the amount of employees to run their businesses and factories. And it's not as if most jobs are manual labour ones that no one enjoys doing. Many jobs are white collar desk jobs. And less staff means longer wait times for services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Then we gained nothing from industrialization. In fact, we lost ground. We've regressed from one industrial worker per family, to two. Industrialization simply created twice as much work that had to be done to sustain us. I can hardly wait for the next big miracle breakthrough, when children will have to be sent to work, too, in order to produce all the necessary goods and sevices..
As a woman, I am very appreciative of being allowing to participate fully in the work force. I'm not interested in staying home all day as a kept woman raising kids and doing the housework. I don't want to live on some allowance from a husband. I enjoy using my brain. Both my parents working allowed them to be able to afford to live in a town with a good public school system and a safe environment for their kids to grow up in. A double income helped pay for our college educations. And back in the 70's, the commuter traffic around Boston wasn't all that bad. Over the years as the area population increased, that's what caused the rush hour traffic to get much worse. So the worst option is to have 99% of the population staying home and making more babies. Our major problem is that we need LESS people in our country and on our planet, not less jobs.

I believe the human spirit needs to have a job to do, and not be loafing around their asses all day... and isn't that what welfare recipients do? Loaf around and make babies? And the mentally bored are the ones that turn to substance abuse to get their kicks. So under your plan, there would be more alcohol and drug abuse by those who are unemployed.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 49,800,483 times
Reputation: 24555
Question 1 - What is California and, including the rest of the country, going to do with the existing workforce displaced by industrial robots and off shoring production? What are these, principally manual workers, going to do for a living?

Question 2 - What is going to happen to all the stores, big and small, that have been selling stuff to the former welfare recipients of the welfare checks? How are the drug dealers going to afford their fancy cars and higher quality drugs? What will happen to the smugglers? How will the CIA make up for their lost revenue from their drug dealings?

Question 3 - What will happen to the owners of welfare housing when the rent payments stop?

Question 4 - what are all the clerks and managers of the existing welfare system going to do for income? Just how many jobs are available for ex-government bureaucrats?

Question 5 - who is going to pay for the unrest created by people that just had their incomes terminated? This will create a target rich environment for some enterprising rabble rouser.

Question 6 - What is the difference between living on welfare, a pension or the family trust fund? None of these people are doing anything to earn their money so why do we disparage one class of people and not the other two?

Question 7 – Why do so many people assume everyone on welfare is a lazy parasite? Many are disabled and some are just too damaged (I have a friend that cannot hold a thought for more than a few seconds because of a Vietnam “friendly fire” incident left some shrapnel in his brain) or too ill.

Question 8 – Why is it morally superior to spend government collected tax money hiring private sector mercenaries at five times the price of government soldiers in al illegal war than give some aid to folks that cannot make it in our complex economy?
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,666 posts, read 71,897,044 times
Reputation: 35911
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighPlainsDrifter73 View Post
If I stayed home, who would pay my bills. I would gladly stay home if someone would write checks for my mortgage, car payment and other bills. I have yet to receive offers on that. Maybe my mortgage company could just declare my mortgage paid - I would love it. None of this kind of stuff is going to happen. Perhaps you are independently wealthy, I'm not and I need to earn a living. And besides, I need a challenge in my life and my job creates that for me. There are actually people who like their jobs - like me.
I love it when you guys ask me challenging questions and then answer them for yourselves. Those of you who love to work can keep right on doing it, for about half your present salary. The rest can be used to support those who, for example, have small kids at home to take care of, or who are seeking an education but still need to be housed and fed. Or, are simply not intelligent or strong enough to be fully productive workers. Or who have behavioral or emotional disabilities that make them relatively useless at the job site.

You want it both ways. You want to do what you love to do, and get paid enough for doing it to have a couple of new cars and a paid-up mortgage in the country club suburbs. First you need to sweep society clean of all human imperfections. Then your can start in organizing your Utopia where everybody is as perfect as you are. Footnote: eliminating all human imperfections cannot be achieved by putting everyone to work. That's been tried. Got another idea?

If you owned a small business, and needed ten employees, would you go out at 2-AM and hire the first ten guys you find in the streets at bar-closing time? No? Why not? Don't you want those guys working for you? Neither does anybody else. But you want to force other people to employ them. Not you, somebody else. They are "needed" as members of our work force, because we cannot thrive as a nation unless every single able bodied adult puts in at least 40 hours doing what some boss tells them to do. Yes, we can round them all up and order them at gunpoint to dig holes and fill them back in again. Which is a pretty good description of American industry these days. Work or starve, and it doesn't matter what the work is.

Here's an easy multpile choice for you. A guy is an irresponsible uneducated drunk. What should society do with him?
1. Pay him to work next to you
2. Pay him to work next to somebody else.
3. Pay him to stay home.
4. Let him vomit himself to death in the streets while his kids starve.

Last edited by jtur88; 06-16-2009 at 08:15 AM..
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:30 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 65,500,570 times
Reputation: 22279
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Here's an easy multpile choice for you. A guy is an irresponsible uneducated drunk. What should society do with him?
1. Pay him to work next to you
2. Pay him to work next to somebody else.
3. Pay him to stay home.
4. Let him vomit himself to death in the streets while his kids starve.
Multiple choice, eh?

How about I don't like your choices?

How about #5 . . . put the man in an ongoing rehab program, then switch him to a halfway house. If he qualifies for help f/ the Salvation Army, he can start off there, as long as he stays sober, works the program and follows the rules. He will be trained in landscape management so he can get a job when (and if) he gets his life under control.

His wife threw his lazy ass out long ago. A victim of domestic abuse, she qualified for help from her county/state. She and her kids are on Medicaid to meet their healthcare needs, including dental work. She and the kids are getting subsistence ("welfare") . . . and wife has qualified for a re-training program and is getting her degree from a local community college, where her tuition is paid for under the jobs training act. Her kids receive nutritious free lunches at school and free after school daycare at a volunteer program near their school. She feeds them using food stamps and gets help from the local volunteer food bank. She lives in Section 8 housing. Her utilities are subsidized thru/ a special program w/ the local utility company. Once she finishes her degree, she will get a job making $34,000 a year. She will still qualify for some assistance, but only a limited amount.

How about that? That is what is going on all over this country. Unfortunately, people game the system, but in many cases, such help is the only way many people will ever be able to live productive lives and raise their children to be decent citizens. Sometimes, it all works.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,666 posts, read 71,897,044 times
Reputation: 35911
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Multiple choice, eh?

How about I don't like your choices?

How about #5 . . . put the man in an ongoing rehab program, then switch him to a halfway house. .
Then who is going to pay for all those rehab programs and half-way houses? What is your predicted success rate? I don't see very many conservative congressmen hiring their staffers out of rehab programs and half-way houses.
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