U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-12-2009, 04:57 PM
 
3,277 posts, read 4,494,411 times
Reputation: 1908

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by burgerflipper View Post
It was the latter. I think it's much more complicated than we are giving it credit. I wouldn't say it's about correcting a vice, necessarily. It's become very apparent our culture has changed in such a way where it's ok to take pride in everything (your job, appearance, your vehicle, etc) including your race - except if you are white.

That is NOT ok and whether pride is right or wrong, white people should feel proud to be who they are and need not participate in today's "White people, you owe me" culture.

I think you answered your question best when using the term "probability". Why should whites have to feel guilty and assume a laundry list of disadvantages in life because of a probability? I can tell you white people are 900 times more "probable" to be labeled as a racist and therefore are unable to interact around certain ethnic personalities to avoid that.
Okay, so here is where I agree.

White people should not have to be ashamed or assume responsibility for something that people long before them have done and for what other individuals among them do today.

Here is where I diverge.

If white people should feel proud for being their ethnicity, for all the positive things their ethnicity has done, then does it not also stand to reason that white people should also be made to feel ashamed for the negative things their ethnicity has done? I thought the idea was to not attach a judgment to an individuals because of others who are like them? But now you are attaching a positive judgment to that individual, and it's okay because it is positive and not negative?

 
Old 06-12-2009, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Omaha
2,716 posts, read 6,089,075 times
Reputation: 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoarfrost View Post
Okay, so here is where I agree.

White people should not have to be ashamed or assume responsibility for something that people long before them have done and for what other individuals among them do today.

Here is where I diverge.

If white people should feel proud for being their ethnicity, for all the positive things their ethnicity has done, then does it not also stand to reason that white people should also be made to feel ashamed for the negative things their ethnicity has done? I thought the idea was to not attach a judgment to an individuals because of others who are like them? But now you are attaching a positive judgment to that individual, and it's okay because it is positive and not negative?
Yes, it's just as ok to feel shame for your ancesters actions. I'm about 75% German ancestry. I am very ashamed of what took place in Nazi Germany, but I do not feel guilty nor should I ever have to "pay" for it.

I hope I am explaining this correctly.
 
Old 06-12-2009, 06:09 PM
 
1,467 posts, read 1,881,597 times
Reputation: 22487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoarfrost View Post
White people should not have to be ashamed or assume responsibility for something that people long before them have done and for what other individuals among them do today.
I guess I should start by saying that I do not think that any of the statements that I have made in this thread imply that White people are bad, racist, or should be ashamed of their race. If anyone thinks that any my statements imply that, then please point those statements out to me.

Someone mentioned that we live in a time where it's fine to hate Christians. I'm Christian. I remember when I first heard someone talk about Christian privilege in the U.S. I also recall taking offense at this notion. In fact, I thought that the person who mentioned this was attacking my religious beliefs -- and trying to make me feel bad about my beliefs. Once I was really able to "hear" what this person was saying, I was able to acknowledge that the U.S. embraces Christian privilege. Acknowlegement of privilege is never easy to do. However, it is so important if we are to work to make our society more equal.

The U.S. also embraces White privilege. Now, by saying this I am not saying that all White people are racists; I'm not saying that all White people are bad; and I'm not saying that White people should feel bad about their race. I'm simply pointing out that in the U.S., there is a system of privileges based on race. And, that race has historically been, and currently still is, White.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burgerflipper View Post
The entire message of MLK and other activists has been misinterpreted and lost to today’s ethnic communities. Instead of equality, many fight for advantages, privileges, and handouts. Today’s activists are more of extreme racists who get away with spreading their damaging hateful propaganda. It’s ok to be white people.
I am a person who fights for social justice and equality. I am not seeking advantages, privileges, or handouts. I am simply seeking to make our society more equal, which it is not now. Regarding the issue of race, White privilege is an inherent part of the U.S. Because of this, we must work really hard to make things more equal. Again, by saying this I am not spreading damaging, hateful propaganda; I'm not saying that White people are racist or bad; nor am I saying that White people should be ashamed of their race. I'm simply pointing out that the U.S. privileges Whiteness.

As an African American, I grew up being aware of racial privileging. In fact, when you are not in the privileged group, it is easier to become vigilant of the overt and subtle ways that this type privileging gets manifested. In this same vein, when you are a part of the group being privileged, it is much harder to see its manifestations and impact. Again, acknowledging privilege is never easy to do.

A White person should not be ashamed because they grew up in a society that privileges Whiteness. After all, being born into such a system is not a White person's fault. That being said, it is important to give the following example. In a society that espouses White privilege, you can have a White person who is a racist and a White person who is a non-racist. However, irrespective to their racial beliefs, they both will benefit from White privilege. That is because White privilege permeates our society; thus giving an advantage to them both. This has been true historically; it is true now.

So, a White person can say that they are proud of being White. As I mentioned before, it really does not matter to me. I still believe that it is redundant, given the privileging of Whiteness in the U.S. Nevertheless, if a person wants to mention this, then go for it.

I keep posting because I am hoping that some White people will begin to acknowledge that the U.S. privileges Whiteness. I say this not to make any White person feel guilty or ashamed. Rather, I hope that some White people will feel responsible to work toward racial equality. I strongly believe that you cannot work toward racial equality if you cannot acknowledge the fact that the U.S. privileges Whiteness. And again, acknowledging privilege is very hard to do - but not impossible. I finally was able to acknowledge Christian privilege in the U.S. Now I work toward religious equality. I am hopeful that some White people will begin to acknowledge White privilege.

Once we get to the point where the majority of White people can acknowledge White privilege and work toward racial equality, it will not be necessary for any group to take pride in their race.

Last edited by davey123; 06-12-2009 at 06:55 PM..
 
Old 06-12-2009, 06:37 PM
 
Location: So Cal
38,765 posts, read 37,938,490 times
Reputation: 39604
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgerflipper View Post
The entire message of MLK and other activists has been misinterpreted and lost to today’s ethnic communities. Instead of equality, many fight for advantages, privileges, and handouts.

Today’s activists are more of extreme racists who get away with spreading their damaging hateful propaganda. It’s ok to be white people.
I agree, many of histories brilliant people's visions and/or thoughts are corrupted. Jesus, Buddha, MLK, Allah, man has a way of bending and twisting the "truth" to suite his needs.
 
Old 06-12-2009, 06:57 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,215,159 times
Reputation: 2506
I don't think it has anything to do with "pride" but rather the affliation, the attachment, the identifying with one's ethnicity or race. Everyone does it. People look at what or where they came from. It isn't racism. Only the media calls it racism when whites do it.

If someone is of Irish or Italian or Greek heritage, how is it racist to look at their roots?

It all makes no sense to tie up racism with it.

People connect on a racial basis, then within that race, such as Asian, then Japanese.

All this talk about DIVERSITY, but then when people embrace what or who they are, they get told we should all be alike.

It is the different cultures and customs that make people interesting, and that goes for whites, too.
 
Old 06-13-2009, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 9,118,711 times
Reputation: 9523
I don't know if I can agree with you or not, davey.

I think it has a lot to do with financial classism, and the racism in those classes. Poor and lower middle class whites have just as hard a time "proving" themselves as blacks in those same classes. The higher up the fiscal food chain you go, the more subversive racism is apparent.

A white waitress at Waffle House, Cracker Barrel, or IHOP is treated just the same as a black waitress. A white prostitute is treated the same as any other prostitute. A college student in a satellite or tech college is treated the same, no matter what their color. A rude and disruptive person is treated the same in an emergency room no matter their color. Neighborhoods of trailer parks or rundown homes are dealt the same sort of 'police protection' and restrictive ordinance enforcement no matter who populates them. The general treatment of people in these situations is 'trash'. Those who dress better, who consider themselves more educated or 'slumming' or as the put-upon caretaker of these folk, don't care what color the "lower classes" are - they treat them with equally lowered expectations, insults and disdain.

However, in a university setting, blacks do seem to have to 'prove themselves' more rigidly than a white student. In a nice restaurant or bar, the white people do get preferential seating and attention. In employment after college, white people do get preferential treatment; fiscally, socially, and for advancement. A lot of times it has to do with "my father knows your father, so we'll work better together" - but not even most of the time. Usually it has to do with the color of the faces that owned or started the company or firm. Blacks are not allowed to form niches for themselves, but are always on edge, always having to prove their capabilites over and over again. If they break out and start their own companies, their clients and employees may be primarily black, but that will just cause the 'white money' to lodge even more firmly with the 'white company' instead... no matter how much more competent and efficient the black company and employees are. Some of that has to do with "Oh, they must have gotten Affirmative Action and government monies to do that" - but a lot of times that is just an excuse too. There are more "glass ceilings" for blacks than for white women. (There. I said it.) No matter how pretty the glass, there are always the restrictions. Just as "A woman has to work twice as hard as a man to be thought half as good", a black has to work twice as hard as a white to be thought NOT to have been hired as a token, and to make any progression at all.

To me, classism and racism are more apparent in the higher-income classes. Poor whites and poor blacks often live together, work together, eat the same foods, have the same cultures, and raise their kids together. They have the same struggles of education and income, the same prejudices against which they work... dumped on them by both the 'upper class' whites and often by the 'upper-class' blacks, too. Just as some ignorant, I-refuse-to-be-educated whites go into the whole white-power supremacy thing, or go into drug dealing and gang warfare, similar blacks choose black power or now even Muslim-based power, drugs, and gangs. It is a struggle of the ignorant of either race to raise themselves up over each other, and set themselves apart out of the prejudice of the higher classes ("How DARE you snub ME? I'm better than YOU!") . Instead of becoming progressively educated and affluent, some of the poor devolve into pride in poverty, pride in taking advantage of and/or harming others, pride in their self-imposed 'individuality' that only marks them as being not worthy of consideration by the upper classes. No one thinks of the 'fur-dressed Welfare Queen with a Cadillac and 10 kids" as a white woman - except when one lives around those sorts of neighborhoods and knows that all races are equally guilty of the same attitudes and ignorance.

But I'm still thinking about your points as well, and trying to relate them to my own life experiences in poor communities as well as "rich" ones to see if they are accurate in my realm of experiences.

Personally, I am more about pride in community, pride in achievement ad progresssion both individually and as a community, than I am about 'white pride'. I don't care about color, culture, or ancestry - except as they relate to interesting food choices.
 
Old 06-13-2009, 10:46 AM
 
1,036 posts, read 1,578,471 times
Reputation: 2073
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4beanie View Post
How come if your Asian,Black,Hispanic and you want your children to marry within their own race you are considered proud
In this case they should be considered not proud but prejudice.
 
Old 06-13-2009, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 23,237,803 times
Reputation: 4895
The fact is that I have always hired employees based on talent, skills and performance not race. Whether a customer interacts with a white, black, or Asian is of no concern to me. At my first company my best salesman was black. The strange thing is how many customers who had spoken to him over the telephone had difficulty finding him because they expected a white person. His mastery of the English language as spoken by educated Americans was excellent. No slang, and no ethnocentric name to marginalize him. His wife and children have the same quality and he has gone on to be a major provider of software security solutions with a company you may have dealt with. So the idea that not being white is a disadvantage seems suspect to me. Believe it or not, he feels the same way about keeping it all black and finds white people physically unattractive. Yet he and his parents have felt that black stereotypes including materialism, ebonics, and immoral men have been a detriment to the race and should be eradicated. Want to bet that his children do beter than the average?
 
Old 06-13-2009, 12:11 PM
 
1,036 posts, read 1,578,471 times
Reputation: 2073
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallrick View Post
and finds white people physically unattractive.
He gotta be kidding Lol
 
Old 06-13-2009, 02:00 PM
 
44 posts, read 68,128 times
Reputation: 61
The ideology of white supremacy is deep rootet in middle and northern europe and in north america, but we won´t admit that, but use the white rassist groups as a scapegoat.

I guess that our secret services support rassist groups to build networks. Our german Nazis nowadays are linked with white- power groups all over the world, and they seem to spotlight white supremacy more than the former aryan- supremacy- concept.

When the ban of the "national democrativ party" (but they are nothing than NAZIS) was discussed the government refused this demand, because there are secret agents (of the german BND) within the party who even wrote the most fanatic texts, and there are many informers. The government denied to call the names of the secret agents and informers who wrote and spread rassist texts and thought! So the ban couldn´t be refirmed ...

I guess it´s the same with many rassist parties and organizations in europe and north america!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top