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Old 07-09-2009, 03:32 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,341 posts, read 10,944,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChangedEssence View Post
Yeah, being here first was all I was going with it. I do acknowledge those facts though. Just don't reference them much. But thanks.
I do have to agree with your stance that indigenous people displaced by colonization have more reason to be disgruntled than anyone else. Left to their own devices it would have been quite interesting to see how they would have evolved and what their culture could have advanced into. North and South America, Australia, Polynesia etc, would be radically different places to be sure. The Negritos, in the PI, that I mentioned earlier, are an indigenous people, thus their dislike of the Filipinos. They have their own language, culture and way of thinking. It used to drive my folks nuts because my early speech was a mixture of Negrito, Tagalog and English, perfectly intelligable to me, but very confusing for them. My Dad was pretty fluent in Tagalog though. I wish I could remember it all now. After we came back stateside I lost it pretty fast.

 
Old 07-09-2009, 03:47 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 4,095,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
The Black Panthers were/are all about Black Power - black nationalism, and the promotion of black separatism. While I don't agree with J Edgar Hoover's view of them, there is no question that in their ideology, they are not above the use of violence.

The Millions More Movement is an extension of Farrakhan's Nation of Islam. There is no escaping that fact.


This doesn't even account for entities such as HBCUs, the NAACP, etc. Would you be okay with the existence and promotion of an NAAWP? Or do you think that maybe it's time to drop all that crap?
Let me correct a few points:


  1. The Black Panthers were/all about black empowerment...NOT promotion of black separatism. At its inception, many of the members of the Black Panthers were black nationalists but the Black Panthers as a whole did not support this ideology. In fact, the Black Panthers condemned black nationalism as racist and hypocritical and many of these early members were essentially excommunicated, for lack of a better word, from the party.
  2. The Millions More Movement is NOT an extension of the Nation of Islam and any connections between the two are almost purely superficial (i.e. shared membership). The Millions More Movement is as much an extension of the Nation of Islam as it is an extension of any of the Christian denominations, social clubs, or political parties that 'sponsored' the group.
  3. HBCUs are colleges that were created before African Americans were widely allowed to attend other schools. "HBCU" is nothing but a designation that states that, historically speaking, the college was created with the intent of allowing minority access to higher education. Its not as if HBCU status means other students can't attend. West VA State Uni. is an HBCU but its student body is something like 85-90% white. The 2008 valedictorian of Morehouse, an HBCU was a white guy. Being designated an HBCU is akin to having a historical place marker outside of an old building; it simply denotes that there is some form of historical significance to the designated institution.
  4. If there ever comes a time when 'white' people have to overcome institutional, LEGAL, wide-spread disenfranchisement and social, economic, and political injustice at the hands of both other American citizens and/or the U.S. government, I will happily join and support the NAAWP.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 06:02 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,509,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540_804 View Post
Let me correct a few points:


  1. The Black Panthers were/all about black empowerment...NOT promotion of black separatism. At its inception, many of the members of the Black Panthers were black nationalists but the Black Panthers as a whole did not support this ideology. In fact, the Black Panthers condemned black nationalism as racist and hypocritical and many of these early members were essentially excommunicated, for lack of a better word, from the party.
  2. The Millions More Movement is NOT an extension of the Nation of Islam and any connections between the two are almost purely superficial (i.e. shared membership). The Millions More Movement is as much an extension of the Nation of Islam as it is an extension of any of the Christian denominations, social clubs, or political parties that 'sponsored' the group.
  3. HBCUs are colleges that were created before African Americans were widely allowed to attend other schools. "HBCU" is nothing but a designation that states that, historically speaking, the college was created with the intent of allowing minority access to higher education. Its not as if HBCU status means other students can't attend. West VA State Uni. is an HBCU but its student body is something like 85-90% white. The 2008 valedictorian of Morehouse, an HBCU was a white guy. Being designated an HBCU is akin to having a historical place marker outside of an old building; it simply denotes that there is some form of historical significance to the designated institution.
  4. If there ever comes a time when 'white' people have to overcome institutional, LEGAL, wide-spread disenfranchisement and social, economic, and political injustice at the hands of both other American citizens and/or the U.S. government, I will happily join and support the NAAWP.
In other words, it's not equality you want?
 
Old 07-09-2009, 08:23 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 4,095,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
In other words, it's not equality you want?
What? LOL
 
Old 07-09-2009, 08:32 PM
 
342 posts, read 583,514 times
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I'm the OP and I guess tropolis and graciejj have answered my question Why it's not ok to be white. I've learned if you like being white you must be a white supremist. I like to think that if I were another race that I would embrace that. I also think that if someone told me they were proud to be whatever that I would not assume that they thought I was inferior.
I also hope I would not hold against a certain race something that happened 100's of years ago.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 09:21 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 4,095,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4beanie View Post
I'm the OP and I guess tropolis and graciejj have answered my question Why it's not ok to be white. I've learned if you like being white you must be a white supremist. I like to think that if I were another race that I would embrace that. I also think that if someone told me they were proud to be whatever that I would not assume that they thought I was inferior.
I also hope I would not hold against a certain race something that happened 100's of years ago.

I think what this thread highlights more than anything is that there continues to be a lack of understanding between minorities and non-minorities, and that lack of understanding goes in all directions between all groups of people but is most pronounced between blacks and whites, given the historical relationship that the two have had. There are very few black people who know what it is like to be white and equally few white people who know how life is for black people.

4Beanie, with all due respect, your original post was extremely loaded and your above responses was equally loaded and grossly oversimplified but to your credit it has opened up for a lot of great (though at times charged) dialogue.

But as I stated above, I think this thread highlights the lack of understanding we all have.

Many African-Americans find it hard to understand a white guy proclaiming pride in their heritage outside of the context of white supremacy. Given the historical connotations of "White Pride" I can't say I blame an African-American for looking suspiciously at someone who claims white pride.

Many Caucasian-Americans find it hard to understand why many African Americans feel that way or find it unfair that they can't be proud.

One thing that I do find offensive, being an African American was the line
"I also hope I would not hold against a certain race something that happened 100's of years ago."

I think I can speak for most black people when I say that I do not hold anything against any other group of people who may have wronged me or my people 100's of years ago (though "100s of years ago" is inaccurate... 20-40 years ago would probably be more appropriate). Contrary to popular belief, black people as a whole don't hold any grudge against white people. Sure some black people do, and they may be the ones that are particularly vocal but they represent black people no more than any one white guy represents all white people.

However, going back to the lack of understanding, I think many people don't understand that slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, civil rights, etc are not just "things that happened in the past". They are things that we still struggle and wrestle with, as a nation, to this day. The legacy and lasting impacts of those eras are still effecting our lives.

For the most part, white people can't fully understand how much black people deal with these issues on a day to day basis. And I'm not blaming white people for not understanding; how could they. For example, I can't understand the pain of losing a father as mine is still alive.

I think this lack of understanding has caused most people to be very afraid of having an honest, open dialogue about the issue. It would be much easier on everyone if we could just close that chapter in history and start a new one, but its just not that easy. Maybe we're afraid to approach the issue because we're afraid of what might come out of us all. I think its generally safe to say that we're all afraid of what we don't understand.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 09:38 PM
pba
 
410 posts, read 801,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540_804 View Post
Let me correct a few points:

  1. The Black Panthers were/all about black empowerment...NOT promotion of black separatism. At its inception, many of the members of the Black Panthers were black nationalists but the Black Panthers as a whole did not support this ideology. In fact, the Black Panthers condemned black nationalism as racist and hypocritical and many of these early members were essentially excommunicated, for lack of a better word, from the party.
In the words of the immortal Forrest Gump, 'Sorry to break-up your black panther party.'.....

BUT, you couldn't be more wrong with that statement. The goal of the BPP was to have complete independence from white society. This became the foundation that they were built on and leads directly into black nationalism/separatism.

My parents (both black) grew up in Sacramento and were in their 20s during the 1960s (and saw the march on the capitol here) so please don't start arguing a point based on something you Googled five minutes ago. What you read and what actually happened are two very different things.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 09:58 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 4,095,446 times
Reputation: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by pba View Post
In the words of the immortal Forrest Gump, 'Sorry to break-up your black panther party.'.....

BUT, you couldn't be more wrong with that statement. The goal of the BPP was to have complete independence from white society. This became the foundation that they were built on and leads directly into black nationalism/separatism.

My parents (both black) grew up in Sacramento and were in their 20s during the 1960s (and saw the march on the capitol here) so please don't start arguing a point based on something you Googled five minutes ago. What you read and what actually happened are two very different things.

Actually, my info is not based on "something [i] Googled five minutes ago" but based on stories I have heard from relatives who not only just happened to be a certain age at a certain time or just happened to see a march but actually participated in these events. I personally know family members, family friends, doctors, lawyers, even one of my college professors who were all members of the Black Panthers at various times in their younger lives. One story that sticks out was of an "over-zealous" borderline-nationalistic member (who happens to be my dad's brother) who vocalized his opinions and was definitely chastised for doing so. This same uncle was eventually more-or-less kicked out of the party for spouting his black supremacy theories that weren't in accordance with party ideology.

I won't argue that the goal of the BPP was not to have independence from white society, because it was, but it was in the context of self-sufficiency NOT separatism. In a time when blacks were not afforded full and equal access to "white society" what other choice was there?

I'm not discounting what your parents have witnessed. There is no denying that members of the Black Panther Party did some completely reprehensible things but it was not under party sanction. People have done horrible, cruel things in the name of one religion or another, but it would be irresponsible to charge the whole religion as guilty for these actions. Same here.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 10:03 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,509,515 times
Reputation: 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540_804 View Post
I'm not discounting what your parents have witnessed. There is no denying that members of the Black Panther Party did some completely reprehensible things but it was not under party sanction. People have done horrible, cruel things in the name of one religion or another, but it would be irresponsible to charge the whole religion as guilty for these actions. Same here.
So then it ISN'T just whites who have done such things - which is precisely what I have been saying.

Don't tell our buddy Topolis. It's going to completely throw off his worldview...
 
Old 07-09-2009, 10:10 PM
pba
 
410 posts, read 801,868 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540_804 View Post

I won't argue that the goal of the BPP was not to have independence from white society, because it was, but it was in the context of self-sufficiency NOT separatism. In a time when blacks were not afforded full and equal access to "white society" what other choice was there?
The goal was to have independence from white society but the goal wasn't to have separatism? It's the same thing regardless of why they were doing it. They were a racist organization with a violent history and that's one of things that eventually led to its breakup. The factions within stopped believing they had any common goals.

What's sad is they didn't do anything to further black rights but instead put us back another 50 years by their actions.
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