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Old 07-09-2009, 09:26 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 4,085,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pba View Post
The goal was to have independence from white society but the goal wasn't to have separatism? It's the same thing regardless of why they were doing it. They were a racist organization with a violent history and that's one of things that eventually led to its breakup. The factions within stopped believing they had any common goals.

What's sad is they didn't do anything to further black rights but instead put us back another 50 years by their actions.
Separatism and independence are absolutely not the same thing. Let me use a crude, somewhat elementary example: If my parents decide that for whatever reason they were not gonna help me any more (financially) I would have to become independent of them. Not dependent on them. That does not mean I have to stop associating with them. The goal was self-sufficiency.

As I said before, there were undoubtedly members who held more extreme views but it wasn't the policy of the party. As I said before (possibly in another thread) it is usually the ones who hold more extreme views who are the most vocal. These people are in no way, however, a fair representation of the group at large.

 
Old 07-09-2009, 09:28 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,457,074 times
Reputation: 3868
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540_804 View Post
As I said before, there were undoubtedly members who held more extreme views but it wasn't the policy of the party. As I said before (possibly in another thread) it is usually the ones who hold more extreme views who are the most vocal. These people are in no way, however, a fair representation of the group at large.
I can't help but wonder if it's a little presumptuous of you to speak on behalf of the Black Panthers.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 09:30 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 4,085,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
I can't help but wonder if it's a little presumptuous of you to speak on behalf of the Black Panthers.
LOL, thats quite possible but I'm simply relaying stories that have been passed to me from party members.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 09:31 PM
pba
 
410 posts, read 800,487 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540_804 View Post
Separatism and independence are absolutely not the same thing. Let me use a crude, somewhat elementary example: If my parents decide that for whatever reason they were not gonna help me any more (financially) I would have to become independent of them. Not dependent on them. That does not mean I have to stop associating with them. The goal was self-sufficiency.

As I said before, there were undoubtedly members who held more extreme views but it wasn't the policy of the party. As I said before (possibly in another thread) it is usually the ones who hold more extreme views who are the most vocal. These people are in no way, however, a fair representation of the group at large.
Let's be more exact. Your example is too superficial and doesn't represent the extremism that existed with the BPP. Not only did the BPP want to be independent of white society but they purposefully wanted to exclude them and NOT associate with them at all. It was preached for a while that whites were the devil so that's pretty hard to argue.

Separatist = only be with black people
Independence = don't be with white people

Hmmm, sounds strangely similar and a very odd point to argue.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 09:45 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 4,085,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pba View Post
Let's be more exact. Your example is too superficial and doesn't represent the extremism that existed with the BPP. Not only did the BPP want to be independent of white society but they purposefully wanted to exclude them and NOT associate with them at all. It was preached for a while that whites were the devil so that's pretty hard to argue.

Separatist = only be with black people
Independence = don't be with white people

Hmmm, sounds strangely similar and a very odd point to argue.
Of course my example was too superficial (as are your definitions of separate and independent). The idea of African American independence does not say "Don't associate with with white people" but instead "If you are not allowed in a white restaurant, establish a black restaurant where blacks are allowed. If you aren't afforded the same access to education as white children, establish a school where black children can learn." You see what I mean?

Did anyone ever preach that whites were the devil? Yes. Of course. But it was never party doctrine and it was never even as widely accepted as people are led to believe. It was not a widely held viewpoint. Not many members subscribed to that ideology.

And again, I want to stress (because it seems like this part gets disregarded): I am not suggesting that there were not black nationalists, black separatists, black racists or bigots within the black panther party, but I am suggesting that this was not the prevailing sentiment.
I said it before and its worth repeating: Often the most extreme people are the most vocal.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 10:01 PM
pba
 
410 posts, read 800,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540_804 View Post
Of course my example was too superficial (as are your definitions of separate and independent). The idea of African American independence does not say "Don't associate with with white people" but instead "If you are not allowed in a white restaurant, establish a black restaurant where blacks are allowed. If you aren't afforded the same access to education as white children, establish a school where black children can learn." You see what I mean?
I think we may be on the same side but just differ on how to go about making change. I don't believe that if you aren't afforded the same access as whites then you should establish a school where black children can learn. Not at all. It's giving in and not demanding equality. The longer we stay apart the longer racial inequality will exist.

If someone won't open the door for you then you need to kick that door in. The bad part is that the BPP took this literally.
 
Old 07-10-2009, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Obama playing field
716 posts, read 1,867,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540_804 View Post
I think this lack of understanding has caused most people to be very afraid of having an honest, open dialogue about the issue. It would be much easier on everyone if we could just close that chapter in history and start a new one, but its just not that easy. Maybe we're afraid to approach the issue because we're afraid of what might come out of us all. I think its generally safe to say that we're all afraid of what we don't understand.


See, thats all well for a white boy to say Sh*t like that. I mean, What do you really stand for? really?

You say you want everyone to conveniently burry the past and move on from history?

Is that simply the best that YOU can do?

In the mean time whilst its convenient for You that every non white moves on, what about the various minions white supremacy groups worldwide?? hmm? What are YOU gonna do about them? before you start jumping over the fence Boy, hows about cleaning the sh*t on your side of the fence??

Cuz before that time comes about, nothings gonna change!!

While your at it, tell them to not look at minorities head to toe thinking they are of a superior race. It just breeds more ignorance and hate towards the people on the other side of the fence. Comprende??
 
Old 07-10-2009, 07:57 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 4,085,817 times
Reputation: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieJJ View Post
See, thats all well for a white boy to say Sh*t like that. I mean, What do you really stand for? really?

You say you want everyone to conveniently burry the past and move on from history?

Is that simply the best that YOU can do?

In the mean time whilst its convenient for You that every non white moves on, what about the various minions white supremacy groups worldwide?? hmm? What are YOU gonna do about them? before you start jumping over the fence Boy, hows about cleaning the sh*t on your side of the fence??

Cuz before that time comes about, nothings gonna change!!

While your at it, tell them to not look at minorities head to toe thinking they are of a superior race. It just breeds more ignorance and hate towards the people on the other side of the fence. Comprende??
Um...I'm not white. I'm black. And I think you should re-read what I typed. I think you may have misunderstood..lol.

If you re-read what I typed, and if you have ever read any of my posts before (or even the parts before what you quoted) you will see that I am in no way advocating, and am strongly against, forgetting or trying to bury our history. Just re-read it....a little slower.
 
Old 07-10-2009, 11:04 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,457,074 times
Reputation: 3868
Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieJJ View Post
See, thats all well for a white boy to say Sh*t like that. I mean, What do you really stand for? really?

You say you want everyone to conveniently burry the past and move on from history?

Is that simply the best that YOU can do?

In the mean time whilst its convenient for You that every non white moves on, what about the various minions white supremacy groups worldwide?? hmm? What are YOU gonna do about them? before you start jumping over the fence Boy, hows about cleaning the sh*t on your side of the fence??

Cuz before that time comes about, nothings gonna change!!

While your at it, tell them to not look at minorities head to toe thinking they are of a superior race. It just breeds more ignorance and hate towards the people on the other side of the fence. Comprende??
Ummmm... Excuse me? I think the person you're addressing is black. And even if he/she wasn't, your post is insane. You might want to come back and edit it after you sober up.
 
Old 07-10-2009, 11:24 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,902,291 times
Reputation: 12286
Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieJJ View Post
See, thats all well for a white boy to say Sh*t like that. I mean, What do you really stand for? really?

You say you want everyone to conveniently burry the past and move on from history?

Is that simply the best that YOU can do?

In the mean time whilst its convenient for You that every non white moves on, what about the various minions white supremacy groups worldwide?? hmm? What are YOU gonna do about them? before you start jumping over the fence Boy, hows about cleaning the sh*t on your side of the fence??

Cuz before that time comes about, nothings gonna change!!

While your at it, tell them to not look at minorities head to toe thinking they are of a superior race. It just breeds more ignorance and hate towards the people on the other side of the fence. Comprende??
Wow............
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