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Old 07-29-2009, 04:52 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,938,535 times
Reputation: 3848

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
If a consenting couple has a unwanted pregnancy, and the man doesn't want the child, but the woman still does, then the man shouldn't have to pay for the child. He shouldn't be butting in, he shouldn't be writing cards, he should be the invisible sperm man. If he doesn't pay child support, he should have nothing to do with the childs life, whatsoever. However, the mother shouldn't be able to go after the father for child support, for a child he doesn't want, and has nothing to do with.

See my point.
I see your point, and your point is bogus, I'm sorry to say. Making it impossible for the mother to go after the father for child support is enforceable. That a man who isn't paying child support should not have anything to do with the child's life is not enforceable. You know it. So as a practical matter, you would create a way for men simply to get rid of their financial obligations, but to come after the children later in life, in their teens, or after the age of 18. The fact that you believe this shouldn't be done is irrelevant; as a matter of objective reality, men will opt out of support, but keep butting in. So again, how would you make sure, in practical terms, that signing away one's paternity is EXACTLY like an abortion?
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:00 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,938,535 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
with all the problems you described...the man may not have to deal with that stuff, but he has to put up with a pregnant woman for 9 months and then suffer In many other ways after the child is born.
"Putting up" with someone who is pregnant and actually being pregnant and giving birth are in no way similar. And if you think mothers don't suffer after their children are born, you are seriously deluded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
I know way too many single moms that live off of the child support they get from the father. This is wrong. If you want child support the financial obligation to the person holding the parental cards should have to pay for the bulk of it.
The average child support award in this country is about $380 per month. That covers only a small fraction of childcare costs. So custodial parents do pay the bulk of child support and also provide all of the child care. I keep asking those people who whine about child support to point out that place on the map for me where a woman can live a life of luxury on an average of $380 per month. I'm still waiting for an answer on that one. Because the moment you guys tell me where it is, I'm packing my bags and moving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
I know many men that have to pay up to 60% of their income and can afford rent and a little food. One of them went and got a second job and his ***** of an ex went after him for more money now that he made more. and she won because if he would have taken the time off for the court dates he would have lost too much money.
And I know many women who get taken to court over and over again by vindictive exes demanding proof that their $25 per month in child support was spent on childcare and not boyfriends. Those are just anecdotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
So tell me, when does the woman have to be responsible?
The woman is responsible -- she is responsible for child support just as much as the man as soon as the child is born.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,938,535 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
If a woman doesnt get hired and a man does...its sexism.
Funny, out of the 28 attorneys in my law firm, only 3 are women. But it's comforting to know that low-paid and undesirable occupations are wholly dominated by us, broads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
Women do get in bars and clubs free.
That's done for the benefit of men, not women -- to provide you with a bedmate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
loans are easier for women to get.
no they aren't

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
The government has grants for women but not for men.
Really? It does? Could you point me to a single government grant program for women? Because I sure as hell have never received a grant from a government program for women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
A woman can start a business easier than a man.
Argumentative and therefore worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
There are many jobs where they prefer women over men. Just look at the fashion industry, cafe, or restaurant fields.
Well, this is just amusing. Because so many women are waitresses, that means women dominate the cafe and restaurant fields? Who actually owns these places, hello? That's like saying that illegal Mexican immigrants totally dominate the skyscraper management industry. But yeah -- women are indeed preferred for jobs that aren't desirable to men, just like illegal immigrants are preferred for jobs that aren't desirable to white Americans.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,266,772 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
I completely agree with this. Yes, sometimes birth control fails, but overall if a man is going to have sex than he needs to take his share of responsibility for the potential outcome. It's not just about what's fair for the man or the woman, but what's fair for the child. And yes, it does take "two to tango," which is why men should be expected to shoulder their part of the responsibility.
But women, since they're the ones who carry it, can choose to have an abortion, or to carry it to term. He can want her to get an abortion and solve the problem, and have her choose not to do so.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 20,307,565 times
Reputation: 8606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
I see your point, and your point is bogus, I'm sorry to say. Making it impossible for the mother to go after the father for child support is enforceable. That a man who isn't paying child support should not have anything to do with the child's life is not enforceable. You know it. So as a practical matter, you would create a way for men simply to get rid of their financial obligations, but to come after the children later in life, in their teens, or after the age of 18. The fact that you believe this shouldn't be done is irrelevant; as a matter of objective reality, men will opt out of support, but keep butting in. So again, how would you make sure, in practical terms, that signing away one's paternity is EXACTLY like an abortion?
Um, ITS CALLED A RESTRAINING ORDER.

It goes something like this,

"911"

"Um, the father of my son, who signed away his parental rights, keeps harassing me and my children, and coming around my house, after I've told him numerous times to leave us alone"

"Ok, we'll send an officer right over".

If the father doesn't leave y'all alone, you get a restraining order. If he breaks that, he goes to jail
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Chicago- Lawrence and Kedzie/Maywood
2,242 posts, read 5,434,390 times
Reputation: 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb64282 View Post
I like the idea of women always getting what they want, but that doesn't happen...this is still a mans world. You have many advantages over the female sex as a male...so just accept the you have to pay for your kid, two wrongs don't make a right, and maybe you as a man will not get free drinks at the bar. That's about it.
Right, pay for 18 years straight, lol
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:32 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,938,535 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Um, ITS CALLED A RESTRAINING ORDER.

It goes something like this,

"911"

"Um, the father of my son, who signed away his parental rights, keeps harassing me and my children, and coming around my house, after I've told him numerous times to leave us alone"

"Ok, we'll send an officer right over".

If the father doesn't leave y'all alone, you get a restraining order. If he breaks that, he goes to jail
Preliminarily, a restraining order is not possible in a situation where the child is over 18 and is naturally curious about contact with his long-estranged father. Understand, that even if the child wants to have a relationship with his biological father, who signed away his parental rights, we can't allow that: after all, when a woman aborts, there is no chance that some day 20 years later her aborted fetus would "consent" to a relationship with her. So in the interest of true equality, even consensual contact with a grown child must absolutely be prevented -- otherwise, it is, as I said, merely an act of opting out of financial responsibility, not an act of opting out of parenthood. A real abortion leaves absolutely no possibility of a future parent-child relationship -- none. And so, you must arrange it so that a father's "abortion" would leave no possibility of a future parent-child relationship -- none -- even after that child reaches the age of majority and even if the child himself is willing to have such a relationship. How would you accomplish that?

Even before the age of majority, as a lawyer, I know for a fact that a restraining order is a lot harder to obtain and enforce than you are trying to make it seem. And it isn't the police that issue restraining orders -- it's the courts. Obtaining one requires a legal proceeding, which invites the target to contest it, thereby giving the man the opportunity to plead having changed his mind, freedom of association, etc. Moreover, a restraining order will not be issued unless there is a threat of physical violence -- so if a man stalks his biological offspring merely to let the child know who he is and so forth, that doesn't furnish grounds for obtaining a restraining order. Finally, even if a restraining order is obtained, the damage is already done, and the similarity to a real abortion is gone. Again, a real abortion results in the non-existence of the person who would have been born had the pregnancy been carried to term. So, now that we know this restraining order nonsense will not work -- how do you propose to make sure that a man's act of signing away his paternity results in the total and irreversible non-existence of the child in relation to the biological father?
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 20,307,565 times
Reputation: 8606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
Preliminarily, a restraining order is not possible in a situation where the child is over 18 and is naturally curious about contact with his long-estranged father.
Then they are an adult, you can't tell an adult who they can befriend. If an adopted child wants to find their biological parents, thats their business, same in this case.

Also, restraining orders aren't hard to get. As a matter of fact, I could probably get an emergency protective order in about 30 minutes. Its hard to keep one, if there is no reason why you needed one, but if a man, who has no business at your house, keeps coming around, thats reason enough. If you have kids, that makes it even easier.

It sounds like you're pissed because when kids grow up, they want to know their heritage. I'm sorry, but like I said, if a kid grows up to be an adult, then you can't tell them who to go and see. If the father isn't pursuing anything, and its the childs idea, then its up to the child to decide. Quit trying to tell a grown adult who they can befriend.

Its obvious to me that no matter what I say, you are going to think I'm wrong. I say I want equal treatment, the say that women have, you say, "Well, you don't have the pregnancy pains". When I point out that if they have an abortion, they don't have the pains, you say, "Well the dad will want to send cards." When I point out that there are LEGAL means of restraining a father who opted out of the relationship until the child is an adult and can make up your own mind, you finally show that you care nothing about an adults right to choose their own friends.

Nothing is going to make you happy, I only hope that I opened a few thinking womens minds. I've debated this numerous times, and in a room of 10 women, I can get 7 thinking my way. There are always 3 who stand on the, "You don't know what it feels like to be a woman" argument. The other 7 women will try and help explain to them, but it does no good. Men are evil creatures, who just want to go around and knock everyone up, and then leave the woman to deal with the results.

The fact is, that women have a choice, they can either put the child up for adoption, or get an abortion. These are choices a man doesn't have.

One more time,

If a woman has the opportunity to opt out of the pregnancy, and all the rights, responsibility, and physical results there of, then a man should have the same right.
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:26 AM
 
1,779 posts, read 2,037,515 times
Reputation: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
Funny, out of the 28 attorneys in my law firm, only 3 are women. But it's comforting to know that low-paid and undesirable occupations are wholly dominated by us, broads.

That's done for the benefit of men, not women -- to provide you with a bedmate.

no they aren't

Really? It does? Could you point me to a single government grant program for women? Because I sure as hell have never received a grant from a government program for women.

Argumentative and therefore worthless.

Well, this is just amusing. Because so many women are waitresses, that means women dominate the cafe and restaurant fields? Who actually owns these places, hello? That's like saying that illegal Mexican immigrants totally dominate the skyscraper management industry. But yeah -- women are indeed preferred for jobs that aren't desirable to men, just like illegal immigrants are preferred for jobs that aren't desirable to white Americans.
Wow, So do you hate men or what? there are plenty of jobs prefered in high paying areas that are for women. All the things I posted are true, your a lawyer, look it up. I wasnt aware that working in a cafe, resturaunt or in the fashion industry was a meaningless job? odd, I have worked these jobs and can tell you that you and most people would not last 1 day doing the things involved in these jobs. I work in the fashion industry and can tell you that it pays more than most jobs.

So do us all a favor step down from your podium, enough with the lawyer jargon and act like a human and look at this topic from all sides, and not just your high and mighty soap box view.
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 49,547,847 times
Reputation: 24548
I will reiterate: an honorable man will care for the children he has sired as well as any other children his mate may have had before they became a couple. If they separate he is still obligated to help take care of the kids. Divorce or deparation does not free a man of this moral and financial obligation.

Judging from the nonsense I have read on this thread there are very few honorable men left out there. That is a pity.

While I was in 'Nam my step father resumed harasing my mother. When I got back I found out and I paid him a visit. The harassment stopped.
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