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Old 09-23-2009, 07:25 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 34,989,441 times
Reputation: 42370

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
The whole point here is, women have choices. Sure they have the choice to have sex in the first place, the man gets the same choice. But beyond that, everything is up to her, the man has no rights beyond the initial accidental conception. The man should have the same choice as the woman. Since he can't force her to get an abortion, he should have the right to walk away. That doesn't mean he shows up 5 years later wanting to have something to do with the child, that means he walks away forever. If the child wants to know their biological father after they turn 18, then thats their business as an adult.
When men argue that because women are allowed to have abortions, men should be able to "walk away," I have to wonder something. If the right to abort was taken away from women, would that make these men happy? Would they be content that everything was fair? No, I doubt it. The motive for wanting to walk away is not frustration that a woman can have an abortion, it's simple unwillingness to pay child support.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:02 AM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,202,214 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
When men argue that because women are allowed to have abortions, men should be able to "walk away," I have to wonder something. If the right to abort was taken away from women, would that make these men happy? Would they be content that everything was fair? No, I doubt it. The motive for wanting to walk away is not frustration that a woman can have an abortion, it's simple unwillingness to pay child support.
It's not fair for women any way. I don't consider birth or abortion to be great options. I wouldn't pick either given the choice, but neither is something a woman can walk away from. A woman has to face one or the other and that's just how it is. If she doesn't want to deal, than she shouldn't have sex. Same goes for guys. Life isn't fair.
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:50 AM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,089,611 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
It's not fair for women any way. I don't consider birth or abortion to be great options. I wouldn't pick either given the choice, but neither is something a woman can walk away from. A woman has to face one or the other and that's just how it is. If she doesn't want to deal, than she shouldn't have sex. Same goes for guys. Life isn't fair.
I dont mean to drivel off into another drawn out dialogue on you here, lol...But, while the welfare of the children is often placed at the forefront of these debates, if the welfare and wishes of the parent also becomes a priority, then this would be the position that I support. (the one you just outlined)

Some fathers may later have a tough time dealing with the fact that they walked away from their responsibility. Tough. Other fathers may struggle to accept the fact that have actually chosen to uphold their parental responsibility, and may wish they had not agreed to support the child. Thats also tough luck. Had he not wanted to face those hard circumstances, he shouldnt have had sex, and helped create a child.

I think the core notion that I support is that: If one doesnt want to accept the biological or legal responsibilities/consequences that may result from sex, then that person should not have sex, period. That is equally applicable to men, women, trangendered or other imo. Under our current system, welfare, abortion, childbirth, parental obligations, unwanted child support, unwanted legal obligations etc. are ALL consequences of a man/woman's chosen and willful actions.

But to do something that one knows has these specific consequences, and then expect others to bail them out, or to demand some option to skirt those consequences is just irresponsible. But it is MORE irresponsible of our justice system to only allow one party the ability to choose which consequences they will face.

That said.....IMO Although life understandably cant be the same for each gender, because each gender is not the same...according to this nation's doctrines, it does have to be equal for both.
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 20,314,353 times
Reputation: 8606
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
When men argue that because women are allowed to have abortions, men should be able to "walk away," I have to wonder something. If the right to abort was taken away from women, would that make these men happy? Would they be content that everything was fair? No, I doubt it. The motive for wanting to walk away is not frustration that a woman can have an abortion, it's simple unwillingness to pay child support.
I don't want to take away womens right to choose. Its their body, I believe they should have a choice as what to do with it.

I simply want a similar option.

So, lets say I'm still single. I have a mourning after pill in my night stand. After a one nighter, I offer the woman the pill, and she declines it.

She then has made a choice. I gave her an option, she decided not to take it, then it becomes her responsiblity correct. This would have prevented a possible pregnancy from ever happening.
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:23 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,202,214 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
I don't want to take away womens right to choose. Its their body, I believe they should have a choice as what to do with it.

I simply want a similar option.

So, lets say I'm still single. I have a mourning after pill in my night stand. After a one nighter, I offer the woman the pill, and she declines it.

She then has made a choice. I gave her an option, she decided not to take it, then it becomes her responsiblity correct. This would have prevented a possible pregnancy from ever happening.
You should take the pill, and other measures, since you can only control yourself. Offering someone a drug that will manipulate their biochemistry in a range of ways, to take care of your responsibility (inhibit your sperm), isn't really your place. People cannot ask that of eachother (imo).
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Old 09-23-2009, 01:23 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 34,989,441 times
Reputation: 42370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
I don't want to take away womens right to choose. Its their body, I believe they should have a choice as what to do with it.

I simply want a similar option.

So, lets say I'm still single. I have a mourning after pill in my night stand. After a one nighter, I offer the woman the pill, and she declines it.

She then has made a choice. I gave her an option, she decided not to take it, then it becomes her responsiblity correct. This would have prevented a possible pregnancy from ever happening.
My issues with that are these:

1. The MAP, like all forms of contraception, is not 100% effective. Yes, combined with other forms of birth control, that effective rate approaches 100%, but it is not 100%. This pill is not going to solve everyone's problems.

2. A woman has the right to refuse medication or surgery. Almost any adult has this right. I know Braunwyn would like to require BC for women on welfare, and I get the reasoning, but she will have a tough time making that a law. If the woman you just slept with doesn't want to take a pill for whatever reason, you can't make her. Likewise, if you don't want a vasectomy, nobody can make you have one.

3. If merely claiming, "She told me she would get an abortion!" was enough to negate a father's financial responsibility for his child, I don't want to contemplate the deafening chorus that would ensue. And I really don't want to contemplate the added load on the taxpayers when all those women go on welfare and need food stamps, student loans, section 8, subsidized child care, and so on. The kid's gotta eat.

4. A man with a stash of morning-after pills in his nightstand? What are you, Walgreen's? Go to a pharmacy.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Outside of Chicago
4,598 posts, read 3,750,884 times
Reputation: 6548
A woman has the right to get out of motherhood. A man should have the right to get out of fatherhood.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:46 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,202,214 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1984 View Post
A woman has the right to get out of motherhood. A man should have the right to get out of fatherhood.
As I mentioned earlier, I don't think all women consider this a right. Pro-life religious women certainly do not consider it an option. Why should they be subject to expectations of pro-choice, and possibly non-religious women?
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:48 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,202,214 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
2. A woman has the right to refuse medication or surgery. Almost any adult has this right. I know Braunwyn would like to require BC for women on welfare, and I get the reasoning, but she will have a tough time making that a law. If the woman you just slept with doesn't want to take a pill for whatever reason, you can't make her. Likewise, if you don't want a vasectomy, nobody can make you have one.
Agreed. It's an ideal that women and men on public assistance would elect for long term BC. I don't want to come off too hard-nosed on this position.
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Old 09-23-2009, 09:02 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,638,628 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
I think the 3-year lasting BC is good enough for women. We need to invest more research into BC for men. There doesn't seen to be a demand, otherwise the private sector would be all over it. The gov., OTOH, should consider it imo.
What are you talking about? It would be great if there was a male BC. But how are you going to stop sperm from going down the tubes? Without surgery this doesn't seem possible.
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