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Old 07-10-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Upstate NY for now. Hanover, New Hampshire come the fall.
99 posts, read 125,491 times
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From a purely biological perspective, no, men aren't really obligated to do anything. From a social, more civilized perspective, yes, they are.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:21 PM
 
604 posts, read 1,050,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
And I say if you are dumb enough to spread your legs and get pregnant you asked for it. Women as well would rather risk it than skip it.

Oh. It's the old 'she was asking for it' argument. Well, no, she wasn't. She was wantin' some lovin', just like the guy, but she didn't ask for a sperm deposit. You can leave that outside thank you. It's the last chance to prevent an unwanted pregnancy when you skip all the other forms of birth control. I wonder, with all these unwanted pregnancies you guys have been talking about, with nobody using condoms or pills or even thinking about cycles and ovulation, so without any protection or communication at all, how many guys tried pulling out?? 'Cause see, that's an important factor. If the guy knows there's no other method of birth control, he's got to withdraw. And that takes some control. That's what you're wanting right, control? Control of the outcome?


When you women get in in your head that you as well have to pay when you play, so will most men. But when a woman has an option to KILL, yes KILL my unborn child because she is selfish. It makes men want the same option. How old are you? 8? Women who get abortions for unvalid reasons are like children who brake things and try to hide it.

So what are you arguing for? The right to decide 'to kill' your unborn child if you don't want it and she does? So you want the right to make that decision? And you think THAT is what would be fair?? Is that what you're suggesting? That just doesn't even sound right. Or maybe you want to keep it and she doesn't. So you want the right to make her have the baby. Hmmmmm. Well let's say that were the case, that a girl had to have the father's consent to abort, and without it, she had to carry the baby to term. How often does that actually happen?? How many times is that the case? Not many. If the dad wants it that bad, take it up with the courts.

I am sorry but excuse me? How dare you accuse me of being a poor excuse for a man. I once got an old GF pregnant on accident and we agreed that we would keep the child. She chickened out and didnt want to grow up and got an abortion behind my back.

For a woman to get an abortion or say that an abortion is okay without any reasoning other than you dont want to be a Mom is a poor excuse for a woman. Women choose to have sex as well, ITS NOT JUST MEN THAT MAKE THAT DECISION....GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD. Since both man and woman chose to have sex they BOTH need to except responsibility for their actions and grow up. The woman should have the child unless there is a great reason like she'll die or the child will die or will be sick all their life, if she got raped then yes i can see a valid reason for it. But to have an abortion just to escape the consequences of your actions is just as bad as a man who chooses to neglect their child and not pay up.

But arguing with some people on this topic is like shooting fish in a barrel with blanks...it doenst make much sence and does nothing but **** you off.
You also said:
This is an unbalanced opinion...Women have just as much control when it comes to having sex. No, they can't control male ejaculation, much less HIS ability to CONTROL it.

Blaming men for the pregnancy is a load of crap...Since men do not have a say if the child is born or not I do not think that a woman should either.
So what are you suggesting? Or is this just your anti-abortion argument? The whole child support thing.
Yes there are valid reasons for an abortion....but there are also valid reasons for a man to not want to have and support a child.
So you are suggesting that men have the right to make a woman have an abortion. Is that right? The logic is difficult for me to follow.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara
1,474 posts, read 2,585,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indie05 View Post
But that just means that he had a choice to have sex with the girl... so did she.... the pregnancy could have been an accident, maybe a one-night stand when they are drunk? But the rest...she gets to decide.......

So if she decided to keep the child (her choice, her body) if the guy makes it clear that he does not want the baby, shouldn't he be exempt from having to pay up? For instance women who have babies with diff men... Is it right for them to ask each of the daddies to pay up?

Because again, the argument that he shouldn't have..well that rested on them both equally......

BTW NO ONE is calling any woman a **** or otherwise...and the guys were never "lured" into anything... That is a bunch of baloney.....
This question is hard. I remember a court case that got a lot of publicity a few years ago. The couple were together and the man was VERY vocal about not wanting kids and the woman reassured him that she COULD NOT have children. Was he a sucker for believing her? Probably but isn't trust what a relationship is all about? Anyway, she ends up pregnant, he is very unhappy because he trusted her word. Now he is stuck paying for a child he was VERY vocal about not wanting (and the child will never know the father and the child will eventually know the mother is a liar). He trusted the woman he was with and she lied. Who loses out? The child AND the 'sperm donor'. If you believe that one should NEVER trust someone they are with, then I guess one should always wear a condom. There isn't a good answer. I am for the reproductive choice for everyone (men included).
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:24 PM
 
1,779 posts, read 2,037,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbledeez View Post
You also said:
This is an unbalanced opinion...Women have just as much control when it comes to having sex. No, they can't control male ejaculation, much less HIS ability to CONTROL it.

I said women have control when it comes to sex and they do. If you dont want a guy to **** in you make him wear a condom. If he wont then he doesnt get to play.

Blaming men for the pregnancy is a load of crap...Since men do not have a say if the child is born or not I do not think that a woman should either.
So what are you suggesting? Or is this just your anti-abortion argument? The whole child support thing.

No and my thoughts on abortion have changed. Its a woman's body its her choice no one elses. But, if a man does not want a child and gets a girl pregnant he does not have the options that the woman has. He is stuck with it no matter what. This is wrong. If the man wants nothing to do with the woman or child then he should not be obligated to pay. He should be able to sign his rights over to the mother and and leave it at that.

Yes there are valid reasons for an abortion....but there are also valid reasons for a man to not want to have and support a child.
So you are suggesting that men have the right to make a woman have an abortion. Is that right? The logic is difficult for me to follow.
Where did you get that a man can force a woman to have an abortion...Support the child being the key words...not abort the child. Read before you type.
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:55 PM
 
604 posts, read 1,050,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
Where did you get that a man can force a woman to have an abortion...Support the child being the key words...not abort the child. Read before you type.
Well you did say that women having the right 'to kill' made men want that option too. So maybe I took that wrong.

But what I'm still wondering is, if the whole "you gotta pay to play" thing is so important, and the idea of responsibility is presumed mutual, then what's the dad paying for playing when he can just sign some no obligation waiver and never have to take any responsibility for the child he fathered? How is that paying for consequences? Are you suggesting he can do this without the mother's consent and never have to take any responsibility or face any consequences? Isn't that what you're saying is wrong with the woman being able to abort without the man's consent? Maybe he could walk away if he paid a price, if the price were something like a surgical procedure leaving him infertile.

I said women have control when it comes to sex and they do. If you dont want a guy to **** in you make him wear a condom. If he wont then he doesnt get to play.

Wow. That really puts things in perspective. That's how you look at it huh. Well that explains everything. It's actually the complete opposite in the responsible adult world of consentual and specifically unprotected sex. Staying in is not an option.....unless you really know your cycle, and I'm guessing that's not something you consider.
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:53 PM
 
1,779 posts, read 2,037,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbledeez View Post
Well you did say that women having the right 'to kill' made men want that option too. So maybe I took that wrong.

But what I'm still wondering is, if the whole "you gotta pay to play" thing is so important, and the idea of responsibility is presumed mutual, then what's the dad paying for playing when he can just sign some no obligation waiver and never have to take any responsibility for the child he fathered? How is that paying for consequences? Are you suggesting he can do this without the mother's consent and never have to take any responsibility or face any consequences? Isn't that what you're saying is wrong with the woman being able to abort without the man's consent? Maybe he could walk away if he paid a price, if the price were something like a surgical procedure leaving him infertile.

I said women have control when it comes to sex and they do. If you dont want a guy to **** in you make him wear a condom. If he wont then he doesnt get to play.

Wow. That really puts things in perspective. That's how you look at it huh. Well that explains everything. It's actually the complete opposite in the responsible adult world of consentual and specifically unprotected sex. Staying in is not an option.....unless you really know your cycle, and I'm guessing that's not something you consider.
I actually feel it is the womans right to do with her body what she wants. If a woman wants an abortion then she can get one without the permission of the man. But, a man should have the same option in a manner of speaking. He should have the same right not to raise the child. Give him till the child is born if he has not chosen what to do by then...then he has to pay child support. Woman have until birth to have an abortion..well close enough to birth.

Nothing wrong with abortion, in my eyes. But the fact that a woman can choose to not take responsibility, and a man cannot after the act of sex is wrong.
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:09 PM
 
604 posts, read 1,050,556 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
Where did you get that a man can force a woman to have an abortion...Support the child being the key words...not abort the child. Read before you type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
I actually feel it is the womans right to do with her body what she wants. If a woman wants an abortion then she can get one without the permission of the man. But, a man should have the same option in a manner of speaking. He should have the same right not to raise the child. Give him till the child is born if he has not chosen what to do by then...then he has to pay child support. Woman have until birth to have an abortion..well close enough to birth.

Nothing wrong with abortion, in my eyes. But the fact that a woman can choose to not take responsibility, and a man cannot after the act of sex is wrong.
I actually see your point. It's just that sometimes, it's presented in a way that allows too many counterarguments. Too much emotion involved I guess.
Another point in your favor is a law that allows mothers to surrended their babies, newborns, I don't know if there's an age limit, but basically, mothers can just surrender a baby without legal recourse. The baby is taken in by the state. So there's another option. If a father signs over parental rights, does he still pay child support 'til the kid turns 18? I guess the assumption there is that the mother is actually taking care of the child, and if the father doesn't want to, he has to at least pay. But he can't just opt out, you're right. Unless waiving parental rights means no child support, and that might vary per state law.
Another option is the morning after pill. You have up to 3 days maybe to take that pill. If unwanted pregnancy is a mutual concern, that's a pretty much immediate option for both parties.

In some ways, that's just the way it is. And I would be in favor of a mother consenting to a father's release of of financial or parental obligation. Because honestly, for me, if that were the case, I wouldn't want the man involved anyway. So I'd sign papers to make him go away. And he'll have to live with that. And one day, he might really regret it.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:48 AM
 
Location: nc
1,244 posts, read 2,449,537 times
Reputation: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLaw45 View Post
From a purely biological perspective, no, men aren't really obligated to do anything. From a social, more civilized perspective, yes, they are.
Didn't you see march of the penguins?! I'd like to think my husband is more biologically evolved than a penguin to feel an innate sense of loyalty to his family. But yea I guess as far as milk goes men are off the hook.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:58 AM
 
Location: nc
1,244 posts, read 2,449,537 times
Reputation: 325


But then there are those some penguins.........
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:47 PM
 
1,310 posts, read 2,640,118 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by indie05 View Post
I keep thinking of this question in my head.

If a girl gets pregnant she has the option to keep the baby or not. The man however does not seem to have any say.... I mean he can't tell her she should keep the baby if she doesn't want it , because it is her body and on the flip side, if he doesn't want to have the baby and she does...her decision trumps...the man is then called a poor father if he is not involved or doesn't support financially... I think that it's not fair to the men.(I am a woman btw)

I don't think saying he fathered the baby and hence is responsible holds any water because as everyone knows ..it takes two to tango....

So it seems to me that men get the shorter end of the stick on this one.
What are your opinions on this?
If people werent into the popular american past time of sexual hedonism, there would be no need for this post ; and there would be no need to have the totally defenseless developing Babys head crushed with surgical foreceps, then its brains and other parts sucked into a nearby sink while 'mom' waits patiently by reading the latest copy of Cosmopolitan magazine on how to have better orgasms thru illicit sex. If you as a man get a woman pregnant, you either encourage her to keep YOUR baby which you help support it till age 18 , or, you encourage her to give it up for adoption into a 2 parent loving home . Those are your choices. You do NOT murder a seperate developing LIFE as a scapegoat to your sexual immorality. What ive described above, is what people of integrity do who have spine . I hope you are one of these. Regards.
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