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Old 06-15-2009, 11:35 PM
 
197 posts, read 327,931 times
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They have to front a massive amount of money to health care. GM pays out more in health care than in wages. In other nations in which US manufacturers compete with, there are single payer systems in place. So, over seas manufactures to not have health care overhead to deal with. Just something to think about.
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
15,194 posts, read 17,686,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swansen View Post
In other nations in which US manufacturers compete with, there are single payer systems in place. So, over seas manufactures to not have health care overhead to deal with. Just something to think about.
How's the healthcare in Malaysia, China, Mexico and Taiwan? That's where the manufacturing jobs went.

Or are you suggesting that France and the UK are our major manufacturing competitors?

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Old 06-16-2009, 12:22 AM
 
197 posts, read 327,931 times
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Ok, so, if i have a point it would be this, and there are still larger problems, like blue collar line workers wanting to get paid way more than they are worse, i'm sorry if this offends some, but 50-60k is WAY more than anyone would get paid anywhere else in the world, even in canada. Back to point, create system, at which point manufacturers could again afford to bring such jobs back to the US or new ones could be created, infusing more money into the economy, filling in the hole needed to expand the system. This is one area among a decent number we could use to generate the extra revenue needed to expand the system.

I'm not suggesting anything about anything, i am just making a point. That said, i don't know how i feel about a single payer system, it works amazingly in other nations, many people in countries that have a single payer system are very happy. In our nation however.... i am not so sure how handing something that is so important from greedy hands to the other greedy hands would help.. i dunno.

However, there are very weird humanitarian issues involved. You get a single payer system and all of a sudden every single person can get medical attention, in this nation, almost half of us do not have insurance to do so, in turn, we have a huge infrastructure problem. As it stands right now, even if tomorrow everyone bought health insurance we would not be able to care for everyone sufficiently. However, every system can be expanded, and i feel that health care should be a right and cannot understand otherwise. Especially At this stage in our civilization.

I do not take hand outs from anyone... i do not get help from anyone, with the exception of housing from my parents, but going to school yet working nearly full time but at just above minimum wage does allow me any money on the side to pay for health care.

However, with all the money we are infusing into the chinese economy, they are increasing their health care coverage so every rural impoverished group/person/etc can get quality health care as well.
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
1,229 posts, read 2,548,963 times
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I've seen this argued in print, before, as Canada and a few other nations have attracted some manufacturing jobs within the last 15 years, and some credit their socialized medicine.

OK, fine. Then someone please explain to me why international manufacturers have put down deep roots in the American South, for the past 20 years? From SC all the way to TX aerospace companies, auto manufacturers, suppliers, etc., have sprung up all over the place, and this may come as a shock, but, many who work for these firms are former employess of the Big 3 and their various unionized suppliers, and they're more than happy to come down here for a steady paying job, without a union and all their stupid rules.

The #1 reason the Big 3 are unsustainable, long term, is because of legacy costs. Most of these costs are for retirees' health, which the UAW got put into their contracts ~1970, when health care costs started going up due to the federal government's meddling in the health care marketplace with Medicare, Medicaid, and Teddy Kennedy's HMO's, last of which were the net result of health care costs skyrocketing due to aforementioned government meddling.

So, when Joe or Jane Schmoe starts pulling a pension at age 50, due to the UAW's 30-and-out provisions in their contracts, that person would immediately go on the company's retiree health plan, which, up until recently, they didn't pay a dime for. Joe or Jane live a comfortable American life, with ever-increasing longevity, an end up checking out at about age 80. Oh, and by the way, Joe or Jane's spouse, if they're married, also get lifetime health. Thank You, UAW and Big 3 management, who should have come to the bargaining table 10 years ago and hammered out a deal. Who am I kidding? We're talking about the UAW, here.

So, let's recap. Why did the Big 3 have to shell out so much in health, all these years? The United Auto Workers and Big 3 management who had (have?) their heads in the sand. These people whining about union jobs being lost in the heart land forget many of these folks were pulling down $100K+/yr., plus many thou$ands/yr. in benefits and bonuses, in good times. You mean to tell me I should buy an "American" car built by UAW ingrate slobs who refuse to save a few pennies for a rainy day, and whereby the avg. UAW built vehicle has $2K+ of its list price going towards these folks' health care? I'll buy an American made Toyota truck, next time around, thank you very much.

The American people are getting raped, right now, by their own government, and we're seeing the unions and sundry special interests (mostly in Blue states) are getting money we have to pay back to China and other countries who have us over a barrel, thanks to the Congress and Dear Leader. Bailing out GM and Mopar has left a very bad taste in a lot of Americans' mouths.
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:51 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,116 posts, read 9,202,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swansen View Post
i feel that health care should be a right and cannot understand otherwise.
Let me help you understand better.
Do you have a right to make someone else pay for your care?
Of course not.
And if you cannot pay for your health care, why do you wish that someone else pay for it?

The "right" you espouse is the expediency of socialist servitude, compelled labor for the benefit of someone else.

If you wish UNIVERSAL health care, you need to increase the number of caregivers, reduce the cost, and eliminate bureaucracy.

In other words, it would require a deconstruction of the "licensed" monopoly held by certain disciplines, allow any adult to purchase whatever medicine or treatment he desires, without having to buy permission (prescription), expand medical education and training, and reduce civil awards for malpractice to a refund of money plus 50%. And if the recipient paid nothing for his medical care, he has no standing to complain, nor be compensated.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger View Post
How's the healthcare in Malaysia, China, Mexico and Taiwan? That's where the manufacturing jobs went.


rolleyes
Malaysia has had free universal health care for years, and it applies to everyone. My wife, 15 years ago, went to a Malasian outpaient department for severe foot pain. It was free. We just walked into a hospital, waited abut 30 minutes to see a doctor, it took about 2 hours to get x-rays and other tests, etc., and we were charged less than $2 as some token fee.

Mexico has set a target of 2011 for full universal health care, which they have been phasing in for past several years, and is already partly in place. It already covers everyone who has a full-time job, which includes all autoworkers. China, of course, has had universal health care for decades, and it actually works because they do not rely entirely on invasive procedures and palliative medicine, like we do. I don't know about Taiwan.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:44 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 65,253,264 times
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I believe the reason auto manufacturers "have to pay for benefits" is b/c of union agreements. Other manufacturers, who have not been in a stranglehold w/ unions in re: to salaries/bennies don't have these financial burdens.

Very few corporations even offer pensions anymore, other than the auto industry and government workers, wh/ includes teachers, police, firefighters, etc.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Let me help you understand better.
Do you have a right to make someone else pay for your care?
Of course not.
And if you cannot pay for your health care, why do you wish that someone else pay for it?
.
What do you think happens when we both are covered under the same private insurance, and I get sick and you don't? You just paid 10K a year to cure me. No, you paid 12K, and 10K was used to cure me, and the other 2K to make the payments on a sailboat owned by a shareholder in the insurance company.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:14 AM
 
5,273 posts, read 11,907,338 times
Reputation: 5745
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swansen View Post
They have to front a massive amount of money to health care. GM pays out more in health care than in wages. In other nations in which US manufacturers compete with, there are single payer systems in place. So, over seas manufactures to not have health care overhead to deal with. Just something to think about.
No offense, but I'm not believeing this. Please post a link that proves out your statement.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:01 AM
 
197 posts, read 327,931 times
Reputation: 149
@HowardRoarke
That post was very biased. Your against the unions i see that, but i'm against what the unions have become. However, it is very unfair to but blame on them when they were merely becoming increasingly greedy along with the companies the union members work for. We have a very large issue, yes, some companies are good as well some unions are good. However, i do side with the unions allowing workers to have a voice, i think this is VERY important. Currently in or system you can have you job permanently filled if you protest for you job and are not in a union. Yes, pensions, compensations etc are up to the corporations, but there are just as many crooked corporations as unions, we have a large issue, they have only grown progressively worse together and to put blame solely on one or the other misses many things.

@jetgraphics
When did i say i want some one to pay for my health care??? were is that written? I would love to pay for my health care, but since my employer doesn't offer any plans i am on my own and it is simply an impossibility right now. My point was to simply underline that some people are just so poor they do not have the money to pay greedy insurance companies the huge amount they want. Before you say that they should have higher aspirations, there is absolutely nothing wrong with living modestly, and being poor means they are doing a job you probably rely on at some point during your day/week but are unwilling to do. I understand single payer health insurance is a socialist view, but i believe in many different ideas and am not held down by the constraints of one single party. That said, if i made 80k a year, i wouldn't mind paying more in taxes to help out some one who is less fortunate. However, i can also understand the issue there, being that OUR government ultimately would have control over the money and who knows what they would do with it... many many issues.

@Blazer Prophet
i don't remember in which interview it is stated, but its in one of them
The Real News Network - National health care better be good
The Real News Network - Too big to fail, too big to be privately owned
The Real News Network - Could union ownership reshape auto?
The Real News Network - Retired auto workers handed the risk
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