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I am French and I have no problem with it as long as it is actually a true personal choice ( which it is for many Muslim Women despite a lot of Western preconceptions) and that it does not appear in civic life ( state schools, government offices, state hospitals etc..) .
I strongly believe in the separation of state and church/religion ( which is what the French stand is about) and do not like to see symbols of religion worn employees of the state ( or pupils).
In France any religious symbols is frowned upon so it is not simply Islam being singled out. Crosses or Stars of David are not allowed in public spaces for example. I would have no problem with a nurse wearing a cross, etc.. as long as it is hidden and remains discreet.
I would have a major problem with Burqas if the person wearing it was in a position where openess and "trust" have to be established ( teaching, medical profession etc.. ) as we do after all rely a lot as human beings on facial expressions and a feeling of mutual equal footing.
But I do believe anyone should be allowed whatever they want in their private lives ( which includes in public) as long as you are not employed by the State. So no problem whatsoever with with hospital visitors wearing a Burqa , or the Mother of a pupil coming to Parents' evening for example. But I would not wish to see Nurses, Doctors, Teachers, Town Planners, State Attorneys etc... people who are in the pay or the State wearing ANY religious symbol unless hidden ( which of course precludes garments like Hijabs and Burqas).
But state and religion must IMHO remain firmly separate.
Sarkozy is a bit of a racist and a fascist so if he actually wants to outlaw Burqas as a piece of Garment then I strongly find this authoritarian and rather dubious.
I know a lot of Muslim independent , professional women who wear the Hijab or even the Burqa and not one of them is an oppressed victim of patriarchal machismo. Many Muslim women are but many are not and simply follow what THEY believe in without any pressure.
I am French and I have no problem with it as long as it is actually a true personal choice ( which it is for many Muslim Women despite a lot of Western preconceptions) and that it does not appear in civic life ( state schools, government offices, state hospitals etc..) .
I strongly believe in the separation of state and church/religion ( which is what the French stand is about) and do not like to see symbols of religion worn employees of the state ( or pupils).
In France any religious symbols is frowned upon so it is not simply Islam being singled out. Crosses or Stars of David are not allowed in public spaces for example. I would have no problem with a nurse wearing a cross, etc.. as long as it is hidden and remains discreet.
I would have a major problem with Burqas if the person wearing it was in a position where openess and "trust" have to be established ( teaching, medical profession etc.. ) as we do after all rely a lot as human beings on facial expressions and a feeling of mutual equal footing.
But I do believe anyone should be allowed whatever they want in their private lives ( which includes in public) as long as you are not employed by the State. So no problem whatsoever with with hospital visitors wearing a Burqa , or the Mother of a pupil coming to Parents' evening for example. But I would not wish to see Nurses, Doctors, Teachers, Town Planners, State Attorneys etc... people who are in the pay or the State wearing ANY religious symbol unless hidden ( which of course precludes garments like Hijabs and Burqas).
But state and religion must IMHO remain firmly separate.
Sarkozy is a bit of a racist and a fascist so if he actually wants to outlaw Burqas as a piece of Garment then I strongly find this authoritarian and rather dubious.
I know a lot of Muslim independent , professional women who wear the Hijab or even the Burqa and not one of them is an oppressed victim of patriarchal machismo. Many Muslim women are but many are not and simply follow what THEY believe in without any pressure.
Why shouldn't a Muslim woman be allowed to wear a Burka at school or work if she works or is a student at a state facility?
I think forbidding them is stepping on religious freedom.
Location: Oviedo, Fl formerly from the Philly Burbs!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker
Why shouldn't a Muslim woman be allowed to wear a Burka at school or work if she works or is a student at a state facility?
I think forbidding them is stepping on religious freedom.
And to go along with playing devil's advocate here, the burqa is NOT just a statement like a cross or a star of david might be that states your religious belief. It IS their modesty. Their total covering of the body that they believe as part of their faith. No men shall lay eyes on ANY part of the female save their eyes. I won't continue on to say that they also supposedly are not supposed to be out in public without a male family member attending to them, etc. etc...by I won't go there...lol.
This is going to be a very fine line Sarkozy has chosen to walk. I will be watching to see how this one plays out....
1. The state must appear to be nonsectarian, which can only be done by state employees in nonsectarian dress. Or,
2. A worker has a right to dress according to religious custom, and the state cannot restrict that.
Take your pick.
How about posting a disclaimer in the workplace that says "The expressions of faith by public empoyees' apparel does not necessarily represent the faith of the French Republic." That works as a CYA in America.
Symbol of debasement of women that should be outlawed by France or freedom of clothes choice?
Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France. Not a religious practice.
Some individuals, myself included, find Daisy Dukes and stiletto heel platform shoes to be a debasement of women, but for some odd reason I doubt that Sarkozy would agree with me and there in lies the crux of the problem. What Sarkozy thinks is irrelevant and when what he thinks takes on the color of authority it is just wrong.
But France is France, not the U.S. where such freedoms are guaranteed.
I am French and I have no problem with it as long as it is actually a true personal choice ( which it is for many Muslim Women despite a lot of Western preconceptions) and that it does not appear in civic life ( state schools, government offices, state hospitals etc..) .
I strongly believe in the separation of state and church/religion ( which is what the French stand is about) and do not like to see symbols of religion worn employees of the state ( or pupils).
In France any religious symbols is frowned upon so it is not simply Islam being singled out. Crosses or Stars of David are not allowed in public spaces for example. I would have no problem with a nurse wearing a cross, etc.. as long as it is hidden and remains discreet.
I would have a major problem with Burqas if the person wearing it was in a position where openess and "trust" have to be established ( teaching, medical profession etc.. ) as we do after all rely a lot as human beings on facial expressions and a feeling of mutual equal footing.
But I do believe anyone should be allowed whatever they want in their private lives ( which includes in public) as long as you are not employed by the State. So no problem whatsoever with with hospital visitors wearing a Burqa , or the Mother of a pupil coming to Parents' evening for example. But I would not wish to see Nurses, Doctors, Teachers, Town Planners, State Attorneys etc... people who are in the pay or the State wearing ANY religious symbol unless hidden ( which of course precludes garments like Hijabs and Burqas).
But state and religion must IMHO remain firmly separate.
Sarkozy is a bit of a racist and a fascist so if he actually wants to outlaw Burqas as a piece of Garment then I strongly find this authoritarian and rather dubious.
I know a lot of Muslim independent , professional women who wear the Hijab or even the Burqa and not one of them is an oppressed victim of patriarchal machismo. Many Muslim women are but many are not and simply follow what THEY believe in without any pressure.
Just to have it clear in my mind, in a public place it would be bad if somebody wears a cross and it is visible?
If what I understand from you it is correct, you are interfering with freedom of expression. If a nurse is wearing a cross at it is visible and does not interfere with her duties, to me you are imposing on her freedom of expression. Freedom of expresion includes to express your religious views. That nurse is not telling you to become catholic or whatever simply because she wears it, does she?
The example of the Star of David frowned upon on public places to me goes to far in the sense that that individual is not trying to change your beliefs. It is suppressing freedom of expression. It looks that France does suppress that.
In the defense of Western culture, I believe that Europe's vastly un-assimilated Muslim populations need to do more to fit in to the society that took them in. The burqa and the hijab that Muslim women wear is a symbol of separation. I don't blame France for not "relishing the burqa". I don't relish the burqa either and believe it should be banned in all places but the mosque.
In the defense of Western culture, I believe that Europe's vastly un-assimilated Muslim populations need to do more to fit in to the society that took them in. The burqa and the hijab that Muslim women wear is a symbol of separation. I don't blame France for not "relishing the burqa". I don't relish the burqa either and believe it should be banned in all places but the mosque.
Should yarmulkes, tallits, Shtreimels, habits or civaras also be banned because they set other religious orders apart from the greater society, or is this only for muslims?
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