Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
RVlover, you are baiting, being dismissive of the intent of the thread by attempting one-upsmanship, and in general failing to understand the concept of debate. It is not edifying, it is not productive, and does less to evangelize and more to turn people away from Christ than just about anything you could do in a forum like this.
I happen to agree with you that many (but not all) Christians are very contented people. That said, an excessive and uncontrollable need to witness or proselytize is not a sign of contentment or security. When people, unprompted, come up to you and ask how you are so peaceful and contented, and you simply reply "I found the teachings of Christ" and leave it at that, you give a much more potent message than any descent into argumentative discussion. Most people have a natural sense about who is enlightened, and part of that sense is based on actions and deeds.
REPLY: If someone was teaching heresy , then i say kuds to Geisler !.
I strongly suspect that the "heresy" that Geiser is most opposed to is the heresy that they should not be charging 75 bucks for the DVD that finally, after centuries of apologetics, nails the absolute proof of God.
You have nothing more objective than faith, unless you have uncovered something hard and visible and tangible that proves that the universe as we see it could not possibly have been formed through the agency of any other than the God that you say is your personal God as revealed through the man that you call your savior. If you do have something concrete that proves that ONLY your god, and none other, could have done this, I would like to hear about it, but I will not pay 75 bucks to hear about it.
I'll never understand why some people, no matter *what* they believe, feel the need to wear their ideologies on their sleeve--let alone force it on others.
REPLY: We ALL have ideologies, a religion we follow , a philosophy, and worldview ; we all show it verbally, thru actions, thru apathy, or thru steadfastness.
They must be very unhappy, yet don't even recognize their sadness.I don't think that they're necessarily unhappy.
REPLY: Happiness or sadness doesnt have anything to do with it ; this is a public Forum youre on and one is encouraged to voice their view (hopefully) based on fact and evidences. We all have that right, and its an infringement on someone if you take a stand against that. Please dont do that. Thanks.
Just insecure. Or, even worse, conceited to the degree that they feel compelled to rescue the rest of us from our ignorance. It is this, more than anything else, which keeps me from becoming a political "progressive": the smug and blatant self-righteousness of so many of them.
REPLY: No one can 'rescue' you from anything. Thats up to you , therefore your statement is a non sequitar. Appealing to ones political position is also irrelevant . Dont appeal to another being 'self righteous' without definitive proof and listing it thereof ; otherwise, it is only your personal opinion .
Their blind hypocrisy -- bleating about tolerance while demonstrating absolute intolerance for those who dare to disagree with them --would be sad if it were not so wryly amusing.
REPLY: No one , including myself, called anyone 'intolerant' for not agreeing with me ; therefore, you made an unsupported false claim. If you have a preconcieved bias regarding someone or a group, please indicate so ... but dont resort to a strawman attack which is very disengenuous. Thanks.
I feel the same way about some Christians, by the way'
REPLY: I knew that before i scrolled this far. But im afraid your misconceptions are invalid , and your presumptuous is not.
I strongly suspect that the "heresy" that Geiser is most opposed to is the heresy that they should not be charging 75 bucks for the DVD that finally, after centuries of apologetics, nails the absolute proof of God.
REPLY: Dont suspect that unless absolute proof can be shown .
You have nothing more objective than faith, unless you have uncovered something hard and visible and tangible that proves that the universe as we see it could not possibly have been formed through the agency of any other than the God that you say is your personal God as revealed through the man that you call your savior. If you do have something concrete that proves that ONLY your god, and none other, could have done this, I would like to hear about it, but I will not pay 75 bucks to hear about it.
REPLY: Youve been following me around this Forum for quite a while now, so youve gotton some compelling evidence from cosmology ,teleology ,and morality which no natural causes could possibly bring into reality. IF you dont want consider them due to an apriori-commitment to atheism , then that is your veto perogative ; the same as someone vetoing the obligation of making moral choices that you alluded to in a previous post. Last.y, it is encumbant upon YOU to show how Natural Laws can give us a cosmos that is replete with evidences of Design, specified engineering, to accomplish a specific purpose . If you dont want to, then please dont play the denial game that a personal Theistic Creator isnt necessary for personal ulterior motives.
RVlover, you are baiting, being dismissive of the intent of the thread by attempting one-upsmanship, and in general failing to understand the concept of debate. It is not edifying, it is not productive, and does less to evangelize and more to turn people away from Christ than just about anything you could do in a forum like this.
REPLY: If the thread got sidetracked, it is not necessarily my desire or intent ; sometimes threads go that way based on a comment another makes that begs for a response. We all hold fast to that which we believe is true ..hopefully based on fact and corroborative evidence. As a Christian, Im not called to be passive , tolerant of all teachings/views/ideologies , or not to challenge others in a humane manner. And, i dont 'bait' , but if an opportunity presents itself, I shall speak up either agreeing or disagreeing with whats being spoken about.
I happen to agree with you that many (but not all) Christians are very contented people. That said, an excessive and uncontrollable need to witness or proselytize is not a sign of contentment or security. When people, unprompted, come up to you and ask how you are so peaceful and contented, and you simply reply "I found the teachings of Christ" and leave it at that, you give a much more potent message than any descent into argumentative discussion. Most people have a natural sense about who is enlightened, and part of that sense is based on actions and deeds
REPLY: If you or anyone else is curious enough to ask me to elaborate on how the teachings of Christ or Christ as a person has influenced/impacted my life in a profound changing manner, Id only be too pleased to give answer. It is a bit unfair of you to make a concrete conclusion without asking me for the rest of the story., since i only initially listed it for the sake of brevity. Regards.
REPLY: We ALL have ideologies, a religion we follow , a philosophy, and worldview ; we all show it verbally, thru actions, thru apathy, or thru steadfastness.
.
That's not the same as accusing people of a different faith of being wrong or mean-spirited or incapable of moral thought or of stubbornly refusing to accept the the truth.
"I believe many Christians are zealous of seeing another be saved so they can escape eternal regret".
It is that zealotry that I object to, and in my experience, it exists only in Christians. Yourself among them.
When a thread is not about religion at all, and a Christian hijacks it in order to spread his word among us, I find that, at the very least, "wearing it on your sleeve"---the presumption that Christianity makes one more correct or knowledgeable than anyone else about every topic in every forum. You hijacked this thread in Post #15.
That's not the same as accusing people of a different faith of being wrong or mean-spirited or incapable of moral thought or of stubbornly refusing to accept the the truth.
It isnt 'mean spirited' to challenge anothers faith or ideology ; it isnt a crime or disenguous to apply critical thinking and reason toward anyones ideology to see how it stands up. I welcome sincere challenges toward my own as you have offered ; if youre going to engage in dialogue on any issue, then you should be willing to recieve that as well . I never asserted you or anyone else is 'incapable of moral thought' --- and in fact, have definitively said that ALL PEOPLE are capable of acting in a moral manner only apart from a Moral Law Provider who has infused moral oughtness in us, cross-culturally, that acting morally cannot be *justified . I dont 'stubbornly refuse to accept the truth' -- but I do believe it is imperative to scrutinize the degree of truth (if any) that one claims . Truth is NON-negotiable , it is not based on subjective feelings or even hangs on past personal experience ; it IS based on unchanging reality according to established standards that have arrived independent and beyond ourselves. Otherwise, it is simply personal opinion (which is what you ask me to embrace via the twisted tolerance philosophy of our culture . And that is hardly rational to do ) . Thank you.
. "I believe many Christians are zealous of seeing another be saved so they can escape eternal regret".
It is that zealotry that I object to, and in my experience, it exists only in Christians. Yourself among them.
REPLY: Based on independent historic and scientific evidences for Christ and the reliability of the New Testament being an accurate document surpassing ANY other literary work , the statement I made is based on fact of who Jesus Christ is ; if you have a problem with that claim, then, you have opportunity to scrutinized Christ and his claims..but do it based on OBJECTIVE unbiased research which is readily available to all , and not on any apriori-commitment to an opposing view . Thats how truth-finding should be carried out (assuming that is indeed considered a virtuous endeavor by the individual. It should be) . Lastly, it does NOT only exist with Christians ; Muslims claim they have the ultimate truth about God and Mohammed whom they claim is the greatest prophet of God. Hindus claim they have the ultimate truth on how one is cleansed from their sins..that being...in a special River in India. Buddhists claim they have the ultimate truth as found in ongoing enlightenment and that God is a force and not personal. Atheists claim they have the ultimate truth that no personal Theistic Creator exists (which is invalid/irrational since the atheist would have to travel the entire universe to be sure, which he cannot.) . Further, atheists claim there is no ultimate truth except of course for the 'ultimate truth' they espouse ! And finally, nearly all atheists claim there are no objective moral standards (laws) which transcends all peoples...UNTIL someone violates their rights which exposes that they EXPECT objective moral standards be shown them .
I realize that we have digressed from the OP, however, if you care to go back , youll find that it was yourself who interjected an off-topic issue to which i gave response.
When a thread is not about religion at all, and a Christian hijacks it in order to spread his word among us, I find that, at the very least, "wearing it on your sleeve"---the presumption that Christianity makes one more correct or knowledgeable than anyone else about every topic in every forum. You hijacked this thread in Post #15
REPLY: If you are opposed to off topic 'hyjacking' , then you should not offer up that which you object to ; that being, trying to engage me in dialogue by making references to my Faith . , albiet welcomed by myself
I avoid the polluting and corrupting influence of religion, politics, and unnecessary social interaction.
Dont you have a worldview incorporating origin of the cosmos/ first life/ your purpose in being alive, et al. , a philosophy in which you base your lifestyle on , a strongly held belief in a political party or person as leader for our country, and come here to socially interract with others ? Of course you do and have.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
