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Old 01-05-2011, 11:18 AM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
12,687 posts, read 20,840,003 times
Reputation: 9769
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Some employers have admitted that they would hire a White male with a prison record and a high school education before hiring a Black man with a bachelor's degree and no prison record.The reasons given were "bad work habits" or "laziness". I have a question. If a person, of any ethnicity, has a college degree, wouldn't that chances of said person having good work habits and being hardworking be much higher? Stereotyping hurts in this way because it could me I get turned down for a job, and potentially be unemployed. What do I do about that? How does that help ME? At the end of the day, I have me to think about.
I can only speak in relation to my own personal life experiences. Right now where I work, I am the only Chinese waiter on the staff. But there are two Chinese women in the kitchen who happen to be the exact same age as me. I speak English so well and carry myself with such confidence and optimism that no one ever associates them with me. They seem more obviously Chinese, and everyone thinks them 20 years my senior. Even the way we dress in our non-work gear is different.

Also at my same job, well there are currently five black waitstaff. And three of them fit the negative black stereotypes. They didn't go to college and they speak ghetto black. Two are very overweight. One woman is slow as molasses. And if I had my way, these three would not be working with me. But... we have young black women college students, and they are fast workers. Articulate and very professional in their work attitude. They smile a lot and act sincerely happy with their lives. And they don't speak in a ghetto fashion.

My feeling is that if you were looking for a job in the Boston area and you had a solid resume and/or good college grades, you would be given a decent shot at getting a job. But if you dressed well in a conservative fashion, smiled with an air of optimism and were well spoken without a trace of ghetto speak, then you would do really well and not be subconsciously compared to blacks with jail records. Basically, think and be like Sydney Poitier... who I has been one of my favorite people for decades. If you haven't, please do read his autobiography. And throw in a few long words into your interview with your prospective employer and that wows them every time. If you want to dispel a stereotype, do something completely different and unexpected. And anticipate the stereotype and don't be afraid to laugh at it. Don't try to avoid it.

Having a relaxed and happy demeanor breaks the stereotype of "angry black man". Taye Diggs and Denzel Washington are appealing to all because they have a great smile and laugh, and use them frequently. Being angry is not empowering. Being bitter doesn't illicit sympathy. These days, everyone has a gripe to b*tch about.

And I have taken road trips by myself all over the US. I"ve driven to Atlanta and Florida many times, and also to Texas and CA. And I know that in many of the places I've stopped at, I've stood out as a unique person. Especially in little towns where there weren't any Chinese people unless they had a Chinese restaurant, and then that's the only place they were seen. And I speak such formal English that some think I am from the UK. But my English style comes from growing up with watching a lot of BBC productions on PBS tv. So that even though I grew up mostly around Boston, I have no trace of the stereotyped Boston accent.

 
Old 01-05-2011, 11:22 AM
 
3,364 posts, read 5,358,939 times
Reputation: 4603
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Only if the person is unqualified and doesn't have the education. I am talking about a person who has the qualifications, who is educated, who is college educated. That person would have to work hard to get a college degree.

I was stating that there are companies who would hire a White man with only a high school education and a prison record before hiring a Black man with a college degree and no prison record. Doesn't that sound like affirmative action in a way if you are going to pose such an argument?
If you are a black man, looking for a position that can be done by someone without a college degree, then your college degree is meaningless. Unless the person doing the hiring is someone who has been, or knows intimately someone who has been hurt by Affirmative Action - in that case, your college degree screams, "I've already been given more than someone else because of the color of my skin".

And as for the prison record, it would depend on what/when/where.

Additionally, I think that the actual case where a white man with a prison record was hired over a black man without one would have to be sited - because thanks to Affirmative Action, the black man would have the upper hand in most job situations. There would have to be reasons other than skin color for one to be chosen over the other - or there would be lawsuits filed.

Perhaps the black man with the college degree and no prison record has only worked in office environments, whereas the white man with a high school diploma and a prison record has experience in the field the company is hiring for, in a non-office environment. Or the company may have a pro-ex con hiring policy (common in companies that have been started by ex-cons) and so the man with the prison record is thought to have more in common with the others already working for the company. Or maybe the black man was cocky, demanding and wanted a much higher salary than the white man. Too many variables are out there.

There are so many answers to "why" that do not pertain to skin color. There are just as many who use the color of their skin to protest not being handed everything, as there are those that would use it against them.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 12:54 PM
 
25,326 posts, read 20,380,499 times
Reputation: 7033
Quote:
Originally Posted by sskkc View Post
If you are a black man, looking for a position that can be done by someone without a college degree, then your college degree is meaningless. Unless the person doing the hiring is someone who has been, or knows intimately someone who has been hurt by Affirmative Action - in that case, your college degree screams, "I've already been given more than someone else because of the color of my skin".

And as for the prison record, it would depend on what/when/where.

Additionally, I think that the actual case where a white man with a prison record was hired over a black man without one would have to be sited - because thanks to Affirmative Action, the black man would have the upper hand in most job situations. There would have to be reasons other than skin color for one to be chosen over the other - or there would be lawsuits filed.

Perhaps the black man with the college degree and no prison record has only worked in office environments, whereas the white man with a high school diploma and a prison record has experience in the field the company is hiring for, in a non-office environment. Or the company may have a pro-ex con hiring policy (common in companies that have been started by ex-cons) and so the man with the prison record is thought to have more in common with the others already working for the company. Or maybe the black man was cocky, demanding and wanted a much higher salary than the white man. Too many variables are out there.

There are so many answers to "why" that do not pertain to skin color. There are just as many who use the color of their skin to protest not being handed everything, as there are those that would use it against them.
Tell that to my father, an African-American. He has not just a bachelor's degree, but a master's degree in engineering. He just got a new job, but before that, he was unemployed for 11 months. He was never given callbacks for alot of jobs. I have seen this happen to him before where he was laid off, and then unemployed for months and no one wanted to give him a job.

Also, you mention this about a college degree. "I've already been given more than someone else because of the color of my skin". How do you know I got into college based on affirmative action? I had the grades to get into college. If I got into college based on affirmative action, no has made me aware of that. In fact, I was turned down by a few universities before being accepted to the university that I am attending. Even further, how would my father know if he got into college based on affirmative action? He went to college in the 1970's. What I am getting from this is that no matter how hard I work, any college degree I get will be worthless.

As for job discrimination, it happens to Blacks alot: http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...hive_09172003/

Last edited by green_mariner; 01-05-2011 at 01:16 PM..
 
Old 01-05-2011, 01:28 PM
 
25,326 posts, read 20,380,499 times
Reputation: 7033
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
I can only speak in relation to my own personal life experiences. Right now where I work, I am the only Chinese waiter on the staff. But there are two Chinese women in the kitchen who happen to be the exact same age as me. I speak English so well and carry myself with such confidence and optimism that no one ever associates them with me. They seem more obviously Chinese, and everyone thinks them 20 years my senior. Even the way we dress in our non-work gear is different.

Also at my same job, well there are currently five black waitstaff. And three of them fit the negative black stereotypes. They didn't go to college and they speak ghetto black. Two are very overweight. One woman is slow as molasses. And if I had my way, these three would not be working with me. But... we have young black women college students, and they are fast workers. Articulate and very professional in their work attitude. They smile a lot and act sincerely happy with their lives. And they don't speak in a ghetto fashion.

My feeling is that if you were looking for a job in the Boston area and you had a solid resume and/or good college grades, you would be given a decent shot at getting a job. But if you dressed well in a conservative fashion, smiled with an air of optimism and were well spoken without a trace of ghetto speak, then you would do really well and not be subconsciously compared to blacks with jail records. Basically, think and be like Sydney Poitier... who I has been one of my favorite people for decades. If you haven't, please do read his autobiography. And throw in a few long words into your interview with your prospective employer and that wows them every time. If you want to dispel a stereotype, do something completely different and unexpected. And anticipate the stereotype and don't be afraid to laugh at it. Don't try to avoid it.

Having a relaxed and happy demeanor breaks the stereotype of "angry black man". Taye Diggs and Denzel Washington are appealing to all because they have a great smile and laugh, and use them frequently. Being angry is not empowering. Being bitter doesn't illicit sympathy. These days, everyone has a gripe to b*tch about.

And I have taken road trips by myself all over the US. I"ve driven to Atlanta and Florida many times, and also to Texas and CA. And I know that in many of the places I've stopped at, I've stood out as a unique person. Especially in little towns where there weren't any Chinese people unless they had a Chinese restaurant, and then that's the only place they were seen. And I speak such formal English that some think I am from the UK. But my English style comes from growing up with watching a lot of BBC productions on PBS tv. So that even though I grew up mostly around Boston, I have no trace of the stereotyped Boston accent.
I can only speak from my experience as well. My father is an engineer by profession. He has a master's degree and has been at it since the late 1970's. He has also been subjected to layoffs. The first time he was laid off, he went back to school to get his master's degree. After he got it, he still kept getting turned down for jobs. He moved to another state and found work there. Actually, he just got offered a job after being laid off for 11 months. He got interviews, but never got callbacks. Based on his experience and education, I felt that he should have gotten those jobs. He isn't "ghetto" and he is articulate and will dress nice for the interview. He's a very "get down to business" kind of person. Polite and well spoken as well. From watching him struggle to get work, I feel that discrimination is real and that it does happen. Sometimes you can be all of those things and still experience discrimination or get treated unkindly.

I would argue that at your workplace, it is on a personal level. The people their know YOU as opposed to the other Chinese persons at your workplace. I am speaking more about the persons who DON"T know you, who DON'T know me.

Denzel Washington is well liked and people know him. He had to put himself out there for the whole world to see. It works for him. I am not saying that I won't act like him. I am just saying that sometimes it doesn't always work. There are just some people who really are that judgmental.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 05:33 PM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
12,687 posts, read 20,840,003 times
Reputation: 9769
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I can only speak from my experience as well. My father is an engineer by profession. He has a master's degree and has been at it since the late 1970's. He has also been subjected to layoffs. The first time he was laid off, he went back to school to get his master's degree. After he got it, he still kept getting turned down for jobs. He moved to another state and found work there. Actually, he just got offered a job after being laid off for 11 months. He got interviews, but never got callbacks. Based on his experience and education, I felt that he should have gotten those jobs. He isn't "ghetto" and he is articulate and will dress nice for the interview. He's a very "get down to business" kind of person. Polite and well spoken as well. From watching him struggle to get work, I feel that discrimination is real and that it does happen. Sometimes you can be all of those things and still experience discrimination or get treated unkindly.
I see that you are from GA. Is your father also a lifelong GA resident? Again, speaking from my experiences, perhaps you and your dad would do better career-wise in the Boston area. I think that different areas of the US have varying dynamics in terms of race and hiring. I do feel that if the type of job your dad was applying for, perhaps there was some supervision involved. In that case, the employer would have to consider the team dynamics and the various personalities and backgrounds involved. As it is, women get passed over for supervisory positions if they aren't perceived to be strong enough to be the team leader and command respect from those they are in charge of.

And consider when applying for any job, there are bound to be scores of people applying for that position if it is posted in a newspaper or advertised online. How your cover letter and resume reads will affect their first impressions of you. And the in person interviews are not only very short in duration, but if they are interviewing many people, the whole process gets to be a blur. Only someone or a few really outstanding resumes or personalities are going to get a strong positive reaction from whoever is in charge of hiring.

Quote:
I would argue that at your workplace, it is on a personal level. The people their know YOU as opposed to the other Chinese persons at your workplace. I am speaking more about the persons who DON"T know you, who DON'T know me.
NO. I get the same reactions from people I just meet while at work. Sometimes, the kitchen staff is out on the floor doing some sort of cooking demonstration.
Quote:
Denzel Washington is well liked and people know him. He had to put himself out there for the whole world to see. It works for him. I am not saying that I won't act like him.
I am saying that if a nobody happens to look and act like Denzel Washington, he will be much more liked than someone that looks like some angry rapper or thuggie.
Quote:
I am just saying that sometimes it doesn't always work. There are just some people who really are that judgmental.
Well you know the saying... "you can't please all the people all of the time" holds very true.

But the negative black stereotypes are not the worst stereotype in the world. Fat people have to deal with negative stereotypes of others thinking that they inhale their food, work slowly and are smelly and sweaty. Others are terrified of anyone from the Middle East and/or being Muslim. And the list is long. The best thing to do is not worry about every single person's opinions and just be happy to get along with those you are in personal contact with.

And also realize that when applying for a job, every single adult human being has suffered many rejections and to not take each one so personally. These days, there are just too many people out of work or being underpaid and the economy sucks.

And life isn't fair. Just being a good person who is a hard worker with the right work skills and experiences isn't enough... because for every job opening, there are possibly hundreds of pepple wanting that position. Last year, for an $9 an hour cashiering job posted on craigslist, my workplace got over 200 responses.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 05:43 PM
 
25,326 posts, read 20,380,499 times
Reputation: 7033
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
I see that you are from GA. Is your father also a lifelong GA resident? Again, speaking from my experiences, perhaps you and your dad would do better career-wise in the Boston area. I think that different areas of the US have varying dynamics in terms of race and hiring. I do feel that if the type of job your dad was applying for, perhaps there was some supervision involved. In that case, the employer would have to consider the team dynamics and the various personalities and backgrounds involved. As it is, women get passed over for supervisory positions if they aren't perceived to be strong enough to be the team leader and command respect from those they are in charge of.

And consider when applying for any job, there are bound to be scores of people applying for that position if it is posted in a newspaper or advertised online. How your cover letter and resume reads will affect their first impressions of you. And the in person interviews are not only very short in duration, but if they are interviewing many people, the whole process gets to be a blur. Only someone or a few really outstanding resumes or personalities are going to get a strong positive reaction from whoever is in charge of hiring.


NO. I get the same reactions from people I just meet while at work. Sometimes, the kitchen staff is out on the floor doing some sort of cooking demonstration.

I am saying that if a nobody happens to look and act like Denzel Washington, he will be much more liked than someone that looks like some angry rapper or thuggie.

Well you know the saying... "you can't please all the people all of the time" holds very true.

But the negative black stereotypes are not the worst stereotype in the world. Fat people have to deal with negative stereotypes of others thinking that they inhale their food, work slowly and are smelly and sweaty. Others are terrified of anyone from the Middle East and/or being Muslim. And the list is long. The best thing to do is not worry about every single person's opinions and just be happy to get along with those you are in personal contact with.

And also realize that when applying for a job, every single adult human being has suffered many rejections and to not take each one so personally. These days, there are just too many people out of work or being underpaid and the economy sucks.

And life isn't fair. Just being a good person who is a hard worker with the right work skills and experiences isn't enough... because for every job opening, there are possibly hundreds of pepple wanting that position. Last year, for an $9 an hour cashiering job posted on craigslist, my workplace got over 200 responses.
Actually, my father isn't from Georgia. He is from Wisconsin, born and raised. His parents left the Deep South to get away from Jim Crow racism of the 1940s and 50's. He had his first job in Milwaukee, and got let go from it after a few years. He left the state to find work elsewhere, which took him to many states, such as Texas, Washington, Louisiana. We all arrived in Georgia in the mid 1990s. As for jobs, what would the team dynamics, and personalities have to do with my father on the job, at least in Georgia, and in engineering? And Georgia wasn't the only place he was looking for jobs. He looked in other states. For some reason, Texas seemed to be the easiest place for him to get work. He hasn't left yet because at this point, alot of people aren't buying as many houses. He plans on leaving Georgia.

Your quote "you can't please all the people all of the time" was part of what I was trying to say.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 07:57 PM
 
33 posts, read 4,230 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weekend Traveler View Post
Racism is based on a large percentage of a ethnic group having negative traits that people of other races feel are negative. For example, I am racist against black people because I see that out of a hundred blacks picked at random a much higher number of them have behaviors that I find offensive. Does this mean that I am not going to hire a black man or befriend one? No necessarily, but I will have the fact that I had such a negative perception of so many people who share their culture and skin color, in the back of my mind.

I look at statistics and come up with general conclusions. If I see a black man who appears to come from a disadvantaged back ground and looks like a gangster I will assume (maybe incorrectly) that he is not a good person.

So my racism is based on what I have experienced with other people who look and act alike.

some rare honesty
 
Old 01-06-2011, 03:00 PM
 
3,364 posts, read 5,358,939 times
Reputation: 4603
Also, you mention this about a college degree. "I've already been given more than someone else because of the color of my skin". How do you know I got into college based on affirmative action? I had the grades to get into college. If I got into college based on affirmative action, no has made me aware of that. In fact, I was turned down by a few universities before being accepted to the university that I am attending. Even further, how would my father know if he got into college based on affirmative action? He went to college in the 1970's. What I am getting from this is that no matter how hard I work, any college degree I get will be worthless.

Exactly. Because Affirmative Action exists, it hurts those who actually worked for what they have. That's the point I made - in the long run, Affirmative Action had done more harm than good for those that it was created to help. Those who did not need to be judged only by the color of their skin, but worked harder than anyone else, prior to Affirmative Action, would be viewed in a much more flattering light if it hadn't existed.

By the way - my father is a white man. No college degree, but has worked his tail off his entire life, despite a severe disability. He has been laid off several times (latest time Dec 23, 2010), out of work for up to a year at a time - but I have NEVER heard him accuse anyone of discriminating against him - for his skin color or his disability. Just because your skin is dark, doesn't mean that everything bad that happens in your life is caused by it. THAT type of attitude, along with the damage of Affirmative Action, is the root of most racism in America today.
 
Old 01-06-2011, 03:59 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,089 posts, read 7,819,704 times
Reputation: 3808
Why is there racism?


Ignorance.
 
Old 01-10-2011, 03:40 PM
 
25,326 posts, read 20,380,499 times
Reputation: 7033
Quote:
Originally Posted by sskkc View Post
Also, you mention this about a college degree. "I've already been given more than someone else because of the color of my skin". How do you know I got into college based on affirmative action? I had the grades to get into college. If I got into college based on affirmative action, no has made me aware of that. In fact, I was turned down by a few universities before being accepted to the university that I am attending. Even further, how would my father know if he got into college based on affirmative action? He went to college in the 1970's. What I am getting from this is that no matter how hard I work, any college degree I get will be worthless.

Exactly. Because Affirmative Action exists, it hurts those who actually worked for what they have. That's the point I made - in the long run, Affirmative Action had done more harm than good for those that it was created to help. Those who did not need to be judged only by the color of their skin, but worked harder than anyone else, prior to Affirmative Action, would be viewed in a much more flattering light if it hadn't existed.

By the way - my father is a white man. No college degree, but has worked his tail off his entire life, despite a severe disability. He has been laid off several times (latest time Dec 23, 2010), out of work for up to a year at a time - but I have NEVER heard him accuse anyone of discriminating against him - for his skin color or his disability. Just because your skin is dark, doesn't mean that everything bad that happens in your life is caused by it. THAT type of attitude, along with the damage of Affirmative Action, is the root of most racism in America today.
I might believe the second paragraph, but I don't believe the first. Fact is, Blacks are more likely to be discriminated against in the workplace, and there are studies to prove this. Discrimination happened alot before affirmative action took place.
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