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Old 08-19-2009, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Southwest Desert
4,125 posts, read 2,779,137 times
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Bluebeard & Leaana....Thanks for writing. Have lots to say...but no time left today to write, sorry! I'll be back tomorrow to write more!! I enjoyed your posts. Thanks again, CK
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:19 PM
 
812 posts, read 1,613,917 times
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I can sympathize and understand the issue of immigration and the different pros and cons of it.

I can understand that some prefer to live in a country or neighborhood with mostly or only of thier race to some extent. i personally think it would be boring and equally unnatural to cut off all contact however.

there are lots of layers to this immigration, culture clash and melting pot issue. for one america seems to be out just by it's history.

second, a major problem is in the sense that cultures that are too dissimilar have a more disrupting influence on eachother than positive etc, at least initially for sure. and all depends on how the positive elements gain foothold and progress while the negative aspects die out.

i can see despite these 'growing pains' or changes that as the world becomes more technologically based, culture plays less a defining role in rubbing eachother the wrong way simply because the important aspects of life is still met. anyone who has worked with very intelligent and good people know how enriching it is no matter what race they were and even friendships.

that said, in a world where our religious, cultural and personal themes of identity is still so paramount, it is threatening for anyone different or infuences that are so different to intrude on us and they do appear to be intruding on us. but this goes for either party to a large extent. unfortunately, there is going to be resentment and ill feelings and that is understandable.

most of us don't have much of a choice in the political and personal climate in which we find ourselves etc. there are forces larger than ourselves at work.

if some whites particularly feel they want a country for themselves only, all i can say is i don't have an answer and europe seems to be the only possibility. but it's also true that there are negative or backward elements within these populations as well as no society is perfect.

when one culture is more developed especially technologically or more modern and the majority of immigrants are not then it will initially at least be observed as degrading or bringing down the receiving culture. in the case of america, the illegal mexican immigration issue. now that said, where the blind spot is that is not totally the case as their are positive elements or unique elements they can bring as well. beyond that, there is just the issue of just displacement of races perceived such as a majority or indigenous population is being displaced whether by asians, blacks, whites etc

so the bottomline is the whole world is not so much on the same page as yet to work together as harmonically.

but i think (optimist) that it can get there. i am not saying it will be perfect but that it could get better.

i also think if european countries do not want immigration that is fine (of course) and up to them and equally americans should not have to take in everyone as well. just know that there are plenty of people who have been displaced and still live with the aftereffects of the mistakes commited by those in the past no matter what race or country so it's morally unsound to have a fixed arrogant view of who is right or wrong in this issue completely.

the attitude with americans is they tend to discount other's contributions as unimportant. still, in the larger scheme of things it was important and does make a difference. for instance, we know how america has developed a lot of advancement to help the world as well but for instance it is also not well-known that without the chinese railroad workers, the development and progress of america would have been delayed-by years. it was just not a matter of having workers. that is not known as well as other cultural tidbits such as shrimp that americans love today was largely introduced to america by the chinese though of course other cultures have eaten them. but this goes to show a lot is not known about or has been glossed over what has influenced or shaped this country as well. i pick the chinese as an example because they most represent an 'other'.

http://cprr.org/Museum/Fusang.html

this is different than the immigration issue today especially with european countries, but it's history in america still lingers

Last edited by leaana; 08-19-2009 at 07:28 PM..
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:53 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
22,738 posts, read 17,662,694 times
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My opinion is different when people move to a new place onesy-twosy versus when a big master planned community invades a small town.

When newcomers arrive onesy-twosy it's up to them to fit in. They should have thoroughly researched the people, the town and their activities before they moved to see if the town was a good match and not come with the attitude that the world revolves around them and start demanding changes, deriding the people that live there as stupid and telling anyone within listening distance how it was done where they lived before. As far as I can tell, people who move to places to which they are not suited are the stupid ones. They are the ones that spent a lot of money to move and will wind up moving again.

When newcomers arrive en masse and overpower a small community, they deserve the bad treatment they get. It's particularly mystifying that they would all move into a town and then put a gate up around their master planned community it to keep the locals out. It's because of the newcomers arriving in large numbers that taxes will go up to pay for more police, schools, firefighters, roads, etc. It's because of them moving in en masse that voting patterns may change forcing the locals to adhere to laws and regulations they don't want. It's because of their whining about the new place not having the things they had before that unwanted development impacting the locals may happen.
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Old 08-20-2009, 03:11 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,593 posts, read 8,662,092 times
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I think one of the most vivid pieces of literature that truly captured the plight of some who could be considered "newcomers" was The Grapes of Wraith. Anybody who has ever read the book could probably connect many of the same dots with the Joad family (and the other settlers headed to California during the Great Depression) as those of the Native Americans, Mexican immigrants, etc... in today's world.

In fact, I once wrote a blog on a different site after I'd read The Grapes of Wraith and it basically consisted of the comparisons of the Joad family and the Native Americans. It truly struck me as a monumental book neeed to be read by anyone who has a difficult time choking down the idea of what it means to be a "newcomer" in search of a better place to live.

This is not to fully exonerate the "newcomer" but merely to put one element of it into perspective that many never really see.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:02 AM
 
2,335 posts, read 3,061,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I think one of the most vivid pieces of literature that truly captured the plight of some who could be considered "newcomers" was The Grapes of Wraith. Anybody who has ever read the book could probably connect many of the same dots with the Joad family (and the other settlers headed to California during the Great Depression) as those of the Native Americans, Mexican immigrants, etc... in today's world.

In fact, I once wrote a blog on a different site after I'd read The Grapes of Wraith and it basically consisted of the comparisons of the Joad family and the Native Americans. It truly struck me as a monumental book neeed to be read by anyone who has a difficult time choking down the idea of what it means to be a "newcomer" in search of a better place to live.

This is not to fully exonerate the "newcomer" but merely to put one element of it into perspective that many never really see.
I agree entirely. I definitely don't blame the newcomer in entirety. It just is. While changes lead to changes in morality and clashes in morality, culture conflicts, except at some most extreme cases, rarely have a pure right and wrong actor.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Arizona High Desert
4,574 posts, read 3,267,079 times
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I agree in essence with the OP. However, why do the "small towners" sell property to the "newcomers?" It wouldn't be greed, would it ? Is it unpleasant to recieve 100 grand for a farm from Japanese, or Russians ? Is it unpleasant to have a "newcomer" open a healthy restaurant with lace curtains, and classical music ? Is that scary ? What if they make fresh home made pies, and they are better than the "thaw and serves" at the local greasy spoon ? What if the newcomers put up better/pleasant lighting, and signs other than the "flap in the breeze" banners advertizing cancer sticks. What matters is quality. Starbucks isn't quality. Mc d's isn't quality. I fully admire small towns that do not sell out to franchises. We have way too much gaudy sign, and garish light pollution as it is. It pays to have some zoning rules. Who wants to pass by a record shop that blasts rap music at you ? Should an adult bookstore be allowed next to a school, or church ? Town hall meetings are essential. Any newcomers who want to plunk a wal mart smack dab in the center of a neat old town should be told " NO." At the very least, it pays to locate new stores well away from the cute old parts of town. Tourists come to see authenticity, not "Sonic" or "Wendy's."
Sadly, some people think that the big box stores will "save" the town. More likely, they contribute to pollution, and trashy junk that ends up in land fills, and yard sales. It's crap to start with, and remains crap all the way till the day it ends up in a landfill graveyard.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:30 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 3,051,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CArizona View Post
When a city or state become a "hot spot" for newcomers, it can be a difficult time for the long-time residents of an area.

The newcomers flood in with their own agenda and expectations and want to make a lot of changes!! And naturally, this doesn't always sit well with the "old-timers" who feel happy with the way "things are."

I've been on both "sides" during my life. I've been a newcomer and I've also been a long-time resident in other areas. How about you?

When I move to a new city or state, I try to spend time studying the "existing culture" to see if it "fits me." I'm not coming to "change things." I move to a new area because "I like what I see" and want to be part of the "existing culture."

Of course, I realize that nothing stays the same forever and ever. Changes are bound to happen through the years.

As an "old-timer," I feel resentful when newcomers breeze in and act like my town is a "blank slate"....just waiting for a "makeover!"

Some newcomers view longtime residents of small towns as "heathens," "hicks" and "dumb-nuts." They come from larger cities and don't really understand the values and virtues of "small town life."

It reminds me of the "white settlers" who stold land from Native Americans way back when....The "white folks" definitely looked down their noses at the Indians and regarded them as "animal-like" and "sub-human." (Compared to "who they were" and their supposedly superior "white race" and culture.)

I grew up in cities in Southern CA and I chose to leave. (In order to live a more peaceful, rural type of lifestyle...away from the crowds, traffic, stress and "rat race.")

I'm not exactly a quote "country bumpkin." I've been "around the block" a few times during my life. And, I've lived in small, medium and very large cities.

I don't understand why "city folks" decide to move to small towns with the intention of pushing for "rapid development" in their new area. Why don't they just "stay put" in their former towns if they love "big city" life so much? Why do they have to turn each and every small town into a "carbon copy" of what they left behind???

None of this makes any sense to me. How about you?

I guess newcomers just want to feel "at home" wherever they live and they feel entitled to all of the "modern conveniences."

These days, too many cities in the USA look nearly identical to each other. It's the "same" everywhere....shopping centers and chain stores on every corner...and clusters of "look-alike" tract homes in every nook and cranny! (YUK!!)

I prefer to live in a town with a distinct and unique personality. "Same old, same old everywhere" really turns me off! How about you?

When newcomers take over my town, I know that it's time to move away. (Whether I feel like it or not.) I could stay and complain and "feel sorry" for myself. But, I know that I have to "face reality" when I am "outnumbered" and when the culture seems to change overnight.

I want to live in an area where I feel happy...with my "own kind." (Nature lovers, people who value open space...Families that don't want to live "packed together" like sardines, etc.)

So, I just "move-on" when I see the "writing on the wall" and hunt for a new "home." And the truth is, there really is "writing on the wall" when a city starts to grow too fast...as in graffiti. (Sad!!)

How do you handle culture-clashes and the push to go through the "melting pot," etc.? Please share your views and experiences too. Thanks, CK
I don't know. I have seen both sides of the coin from living in several different areas.

This starts at the local level. A group of the locals slide their hands back and forth and get a greedy gleam in their eye at the prospect of profiting off of something. Moving people into the area will benefit the town, they say. Look at the money from property taxes, they say. Everybody will bank (or at least we will). We will renovate the area! (This means get rid of everyone that does not make a certain income-the blight of the community.)

The locals then say, lets build a strip mall because people will want to open up business' if there are people to sell to. I have seen a lot of empty strip malls. Larger business' move to an area because they think they can make a profit or do not because they won't.

The other half of the locals say, that is a kind of change that we don't want. They are afraid of the introduction of crime (or more crime w/ suspects that you can't name because you no longer know all your neighbors). He with the most cash wins and people start moving in.
Since this group did not win or does not have power then they build resentment towards those that move in.

I never moved to a town and asked for a Taco Bell. I never asked for a McDonalds and I did not ask for a Walmart. Of course, I have never moved to a town where short order cook=chef until the last 10 years. When a grocery store moves into an area and puts mom and pops corner market out of business, it is because people no longer have to pay $5 for a gallon of milk because they have no choice.

Hilljacks live in major cities and in rural areas. A hilljack is someone whose only experience of life is in that one area, they have not gone anywhere, they have not done anything AND they have the audacity to condemn someone else without even knowing them. These people will actually spend time trying to create drama in someone else's life for no real purpose except to create drama in someone else's life. This operates out of some insecurity that any incoming competition that might prevent that person from remaining in the lime-light. Alternately, a person's last book read was in 1978 and, therefore, communism is nipping at our heels and given the opportunity to speak on it he/she/it foams at the mouth.

You (in general) don't want to be considered a hilljack? Then don't act like one. There are a lot of folks that move in to an area or are FROM the area that take people on an individual basis. Edited for: That wasn't a you-you that was an in general you.
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:20 PM
 
2,335 posts, read 3,061,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
I don't know. I have seen both sides of the coin from living in several different areas.
Indeed. A town near me is allowing a Walmart to level an ancient Native American mound.
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:30 PM
 
Location: on an island
13,328 posts, read 30,046,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
I don't know. I have seen both sides of the coin from living in several different areas.

This starts at the local level. A group of the locals slide their hands back and forth and get a greedy gleam in their eye at the prospect of profiting off of something. Moving people into the area will benefit the town, they say. Look at the money from property taxes, they say. Everybody will bank (or at least we will). We will renovate the area! (This means get rid of everyone that does not make a certain income-the blight of the community.)

You (in general) don't want to be considered a hilljack? Then don't act like one. There are a lot of folks that move in to an area or are FROM the area that take people on an individual basis. Edited for: That wasn't a you-you that was an in general you.
Yes.
I've seen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy Anne View Post
I agree in essence with the OP. However, why do the "small towners" sell property to the "newcomers?"
Yes.
A lot of the dreaded changes that happen here and across the world would never occur if developers/corporations were not welcomed with open arms.
Starbucks in France, anyone?

It's interesting to see who benefits and who has to leave--and for what reason. Some people can't afford to live there anymore, and have to move to the next town over. Other people purposely leave because it's just getting too crowded. That is one of the reasons we left Denver.

My little town has been and continues to go through some of this controversy right now.
As others have said, it is neither purely good nor purely bad--it just is.
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Old 08-20-2009, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
10,030 posts, read 7,521,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWillowPlate View Post
Yes.
I've seen it.


Yes.
A lot of the dreaded changes that happen here and across the world would never occur if developers/corporations were not welcomed with open arms.
Starbucks in France, anyone?

It's interesting to see who benefits and who has to leave--and for what reason. Some people can't afford to live there anymore, and have to move to the next town over. Other people purposely leave because it's just getting too crowded. That is one of the reasons we left Denver.

My little town has been and continues to go through some of this controversy right now.
As others have said, it is neither purely good nor purely bad--it just is.
This town was hit hard ten years or so ago when the last big employer left. The populatin dropped after that. Its been building over the last couple of years thanks to those like me who wanted away from the rat race. My neighbors know I'm from California (left there a year ago come the 25th) and have been quite nice. They are also happy to see the house occupied.

So much depends on you. I'm not sure movers and shakers are going to move to my town but if they did they'd find frustration. I remind myself about that when I get frustrated about something to be done by a neighbor or local which is scheduled for "next week" as its loosly defined. Would I prefer the loose defination of next week or the slam bam rush? No question of that one. Just gotta learn to do as much myself as I can.

I would really dislike for this place to become socal. If that happens it will be a while when the overall state population is less than the city of LA.
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