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You claim that "something from nothing" is proof of your creator deity.
Since you have a propensity for not understanding the basic fundamentals, let's see if we can't help break it down for you in simple to understand easy terms. Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning (of time), God created (out of nothing), the heavens and the earth." (everything)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExitMundi
Who created your creator deity, or is he to something from nothing as well.
This is always a funny question. Innocent enough when a child asks it, but usually the same ignorant sarcasm when brought up by someone mature enough to know better. I actually like Perry Marshall's explanation. Even a child or a complete imbecile get's this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry Marshall
Asking "Where did God come from" is a lot like reading a John Grisham novel and saying "This book has lawyers and judges and secretaries, but what page is John Grisham on?"
The answer of course, is that John Grisham is not in the novel at all. He lives outside of the novel. He wrote it. He created the time line, the story and the characters. The novel is a book with a finite number of pages, a beginning and an end. But John Grisham lives a life that extends far beyond that book.
Similarly, God lives outside of space and time. He created space. He created time. He is confined to neither of these things. It's somewhat of a stretch for most of us to imagine that, but a physicist or mathematician will attest that it's entirely reasonable. There is nothing absurd or illogical to speak of dimensions outside of space and time; in fact additional dimensions are necessary to rationally explain the universe. String theory in modern physics defines 11 dimensions, four of which we experience.
Human experience, without exception, is that all effects have causes. There are no uncaused causes. The inevitable conclusion is that the laws of physics explain how the universe operates but they don't explain how it got here. All explanations require an "eternal" ingredient. The existence of anything at all demands an uncaused cause. So we never escape the question 'where did it all come from.'
A purely physical explanation (i.e. materialism, or an atheistic belief that says that there is no such thing as a metaphysical world) relies on as-of-yet undiscovered principles of physics. It requires faith, if you will, that someday we'll discover a way for matter and energy to come from nothing.
Another problem faced by materialistic explanations is entropy. Entropy says that the universe is cooling down, that energy is being converted from usable forms to unusable forms, and that this process is irreversible. Processes with entropy happen, by definition, over a finite period of time. An infinitely old universe with entropy would now be cold and dead. Once again, the universe can't be infinitely old. It had to have a cause.
So science as we know it now cannot possibly explain this. The only logical explanation is a cause outside of space and time - which of course is consistent with the definition of God that theists have held for thousands of years.
Science does not refute this; in fact a truly scientific assessment of the facts is that all purely materialistic answers to the origins question blatantly violate the laws of physics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExitMundi
Science does indeed have one theory to explain the origins of the universe, the "Big Bang" theory. Another theory, one I hold to, is that the Universe simply always has been, and always will be.
Actually the "Big Bang Theory" is alot closer to the truth than your prefered second choice. Even Carl Sagan believed in a big bang, but I believe only in the sense of the Universe having a beginning. Carl himself admitted that at one time there were no galaxies, stars, soalr systems , suns, planets, etc. There was nothing. The term or phraze "Big Bang" actually started out as a sort of joke poking fun at a hypothesis for how the universe started. Certainly rather than some kaotic explosion, the universe shows us order and mathematical precision, something a blind pointless indifferent random explosion could never accomplish. Again, even a child gets that.
Your prefered faith based belief in the "Universe has always been here" isn't even remotely scientific either. Usually even when a scientist says this, he cowardly is backing away from something he has zero explanation for. It's a belief of concvenience so as not to reveal your ignorance. There is a discussion however down in the science section here in which several individuals were discussing the ever expanding universe. Since it's expanding, then certainly it had a central starting point.
Here's a Wikipedia (since you only consider Wiki your infallible bible) link to about an astromomer physicist named Georges Lemaítre who as it states " . . proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom' ." Georges Lemaître - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Georges Lemaítres suggested that the evident expansion in forward time required that the universe contracted backwards in time, and would continue to do so until it could contract no further, bringing all the mass of the universe into a single point, a “primeval atom”, at a point in time before which time and space did not exist. As such, at this point, the fabric of time and space had not yet come into existence. So it's not even logical to conclude that matter and energy existed before that "primeval atom" since there was no such thing as a "Before".
God created at a single point in history (perhaps billions upon billions of years ago) what we all call "space and time". God cannot be defined in terms of space and time since he has no need of it as we (physical creatures) do. Even the Bible explains that God exists in the realms above, a place and dimension entirely foreign or even alien to us humans.
No, I don't have a belief system. I am not possessed of the requisite vanity to "believe" that I have irrefutable knowledge of the origin of the universe. You are the one who asserts the truth of what you believe, so you are the one who carries the inbumbency to present arguments in support of it. I offer no alternative, I just shoot down BS, because, quite often, I know it when I see it, because unlike the origin of the universe, BS is a human construct that I have had plenty of expeirence with, in both directions.
Look, Here are three statements, only one of which can be true:
1. Tbe universe created itself out of nothing.
2. God created the univese out of nothing.
3. Some Super-god created God out of nothing, who then created the universe.
I don't know which one (if any) is true, nor am I claiming that I do know. But you claim that you do. You claim to know which one is true, on the basis of physical evidence and logical argument. Defend your claim.
Thank you for admitting that you dont know what is true ; I would therefore ask you to NOT assert that you KNOW the personal Theistic Creator of the Bible doesnt exist as you have done so in the past . Lastly, some time ago, you DID tell me that you had a belief and that you even share your faith with others regarding it --- do you not remember saying that ? I remember distinctly. So, what IS your belief and the evidence for it ?
Last edited by RVlover; 09-26-2009 at 03:07 PM..
Reason: added
Thank you for admitting that you dont know what is true ; I would therefore ask you to NOT assert that you KNOW the personal Theistic Creator of the Bible doesnt exist as you have done so in the past . Lastly, some time ago, you DID tell me that you had a belief and that you even share your faith with others regarding it --- do you not remember saying that ? I remember distinctly. So, what IS your belief and the evidence for it ?
I did not assert that I know the personal Theistic Creator. You did. I have not asserted that he did not exist. I asserted that all of your efforts to prove that you know and understand the mind and the intent of the creator, have been unconvincing, and on that basis, I refused to accept it on faith alone, for I have no such faith. I do not feel intellectually comfortable accepting weighty truths on faith alone.
I did not assert that I know the personal Theistic Creator. You did. I have not asserted that he did not exist. I asserted that all of your efforts to prove that you know and understand the mind and the intent of the creator, have been unconvincing, and on that basis, I refused to accept it on faith alone, for I have no such faith. I do not feel intellectually comfortable accepting weighty truths on faith alone.
I said dont assert you know the personal theistic Creator doesnt exist ... not that you know him . And you did assert that you dont believe in the God of the Bible in previous debates. I DO understand the mind and intent of the Creator ... at least from what he has revealed of himself thru the Bible AND thru deducing from the modern scientific evidences for himself. You dont have to believe 'based on faith alone' for that is blind faith ; your faith should be based on good reason ... and there is plenty of good reason to conclude a personal theistic Creator has been at work in the Cosmos , and is still sustaining the Creation. Ive already shared some of the modern scientific evidences with you in the past , but you choose to poo-poo them without offering up any logical alternative with corroborating evidence ; therefore, you should not ask or expect anyone to give you more evidences until you can accept the ones youve already been given ---- If you dont want to under any circumstances...then I do understand because I kept denying them too when i didnt want a personal Creator to be real because it was an infringement on my lifestyle choices and I didnt care for the idea of being OWNED...not even if it meant by the actual Creator of the Cosmos who owns it all in any case.
I believe all of us have a belief of something good. It can be religious in nature, spiritual or just a person who has influenced us to the point of inspiring us to believe. Beliefs such as my own have changed during the years due to family, friends, or a renewal of my own desires I like to say are more ethical than my past beliefs so my old beliefs can be replaced by renewed ones.
I too dislike being told I am a kind of a servant to the one above. We are reasoning humans and it disturbs me to a point of anger. Since I am a wounded and decorated Vietnam Veteran does it mean to some that I may not be considered as a candidate to live forever because I removed many enemies in War? Nah... Am I sorry? Should I be sorry? If we soldiers did not protect our country then we may have not been able to even type some words of value on this site. .
I am first ethical, God fearing to a point of "I have rights too" and wholeheartedly support those families who cannot support themselves for whatever reason because I believe everyone should have a good life to live.
In essence I like to feel that ethics are the first in line for me and my family as I believe we need to attempt to call all humans to live in harmony and find a good relationship within our peers. An attempt is always good because by now we all are "read" that everyone will never live in harmony but it is worth trying....
God Bless and please support our Veterans and Troops.
A lot of people love the Wikipedia for a sort of reference point.
By now we should all realize that Wikipedia is not valuable because it is not a proven site established for reference. However, some of the information found on the site displays some nice colors.
Thank you for admitting that you dont know what is true ; I would therefore ask you to NOT assert that you KNOW the personal Theistic Creator of the Bible doesnt exist as you have done so in the past . Lastly, some time ago, you DID tell me that you had a belief and that you even share your faith with others regarding it --- do you not remember saying that ? I remember distinctly. So, what IS your belief and the evidence for it ?
I find it remarkable that anyone can state categorically and unequivocally that they know the truth about the creation of the universe and the creator's plan. If there is a God, I bet it's more complicated than that.
people form unions they go on strike, they beat them up they kill some put some in jail, but the people push on then laws are implemented. and then they become rights, but the people forget so they dont join unions. then we go backwards and eventually lose our "rights". they eventually end up getting kicked around and their expenses exceed their income and then it starts all over again.
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