A Great American Migration? (unemployment, wages, polls, Christmas)

[BillyBurgBK]

This question may be a bit far-fetched, but it has crossed my mind nonetheless: Do you think we will start seeing an increasing number of Americans LEAVING the US (due to a deteriorating quality of life) to live in other developed countries in the near future?

You can skip the following if you want. I am just going to try to add some personal context to the question.

What brings this question up is that I am looking at my options for settling down in another country in the next couple years. A little background on me (random facts, I know) : I'm 25 years old, have a bachelors, am a 'digital creative', very well-traveled, very liberal, live what would be considered an upper middle class life here in the US, not driven by materialism, IQ of 140+, and just looking to live a great balanced life. Here are some of the main points to why I am considering leaving the US:

-A work culture where you are expected to work 50+ hours to be successful. I am interested in too many other things to dedicate that much of my life to work/commerce. I can do the 40 hour work week just fine, but it is becoming more and more difficult to find jobs where they pay well and respect a 40 hour work week. Americans are way overworked compared to other developed countries (save Japan/Korea).

-Average vacation days per year in the US are disgustingly low. Anywhere from 10-12 days is the norm. Most of the developed world is in the 5+ week arena.

-No Public Health Insurance. Look at the rest of the developed world.

-A steadily increasing gap between the super wealthy and the rest of us. A steadily decreasing middle class.

-Government policy and culture that favors big corporations profits over a well functioning society.

-A society obsessed with consumerism and religion.

I could probably go on ad nauseum with complaints about this country. To be fair, this country does have its upsides. And being born in this country, I will always have some sentimental leanings toward the US. But, as far as long-term forecasting about my potential quality of life in this country? It looks bleak, and a type of bleak that will continually be getting worse.

I want to live in a country where mindless entertainment doesn't numb the masses to the extent it does here. I want to live in a country where I can travel around the world(for leisure, not for business) and still keep my job! I want to live in a country where they respect the laborer's well-being, where they encourage a healthy balance in life. I want to live in a country where the government is actually looking out for its citizens. I want to live in a country with a somewhat healthy political discourse. I want to live in a country where military-related expenditures don't take up nearly 50% of the annual budget. Etcetera.

I am at an age where I still have the option of emigrating to other countries fairly easily. Why should I stick it out in the US? Why should I sacrifice a better quality of life for staying in the US?

I'll ask the main question again: Do you think we will start seeing an increasing number of Americans LEAVING the US (due to a deteriorating quality of life) to live in other developed countries in the near future?

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by BillyBurgBK

This question may be a bit far-fetched, but it has crossed my mind nonetheless: Do you think we will start seeing an increasing number of Americans LEAVING the US (due to a deteriorating quality of life) to live in other developed countries in the near future?

No.

You can skip the following if you want. I am just going to try to add some personal context to the question.

What brings this question up is that I am looking at my options for settling down in another country in the next couple years. A little background on me (random facts, I know) : I'm 25 years old, have a bachelors, am a 'digital creative', very well-traveled, very liberal, live what would be considered an upper middle class life here in the US, not driven by materialism, IQ of 140+, and just looking to live a great balanced life. Here are some of the main points to why I am considering leaving the US:

What makes you think this is incompatible with living in the US?

-A work culture where you are expected to work 50+ hours to be successful. I am interested in too many other things to dedicate that much of my life to work/commerce. I can do the 40 hour work week just fine, but it is becoming more and more difficult to find jobs where they pay well and respect a 40 hour work week. Americans are way overworked compared to other developed countries (save Japan/Korea).

Not true. Employees in certain European countries and specific industries can work more per week on average than we do. The UK, Switzerland, and Ireland can be notorious for long working hours. France's brief working hours are not doing the country any good and with Sarkozy as president you may see that go away. France has a rigid, inflexible work force and their labor regulations make it difficult to conduct business there for French companies and multi-nationals alike. You have seen how the rust belt has been decimated by the loss of manufacturing jobs, right? The same thing is happening in western Europe and has been for decades. Now that the EU is so large and includes many eastern European nations, companies are shutting down factories left right and center and moving them to places like Poland, Slovakia, etc., worsening western Europe's already high unemployment.

-Average vacation days per year in the US are disgustingly low. Anywhere from 10-12 days is the norm. Most of the developed world is in the 5+ week arena.

Some are, some aren't. And some European businesses are finding ways around giving employees that much vacation time by hiring them via contract companies. Sometimes you get no vacation time and due to the wording of your "temp" contract can be fired just as easily as you could be in the U.S.

-No Public Health Insurance. Look at the rest of the developed world.

Have you ever experienced socialized medicine?

-A steadily increasing gap between the super wealthy and the rest of us. A steadily decreasing middle class.

Same situation in Europe.

-Government policy and culture that favors big corporations profits over a well functioning society.

Same situation in Europe.

-A society obsessed with consumerism and religion.

Some EU nations are obsessed with the former, others the latter, and some both. And some EU nations have levels of consumer debt that make ours look very tame.

I could probably go on ad nauseum with complaints about this country. To be fair, this country does have its upsides. And being born in this country, I will always have some sentimental leanings toward the US. But, as far as long-term forecasting about my potential quality of life in this country? It looks bleak, and a type of bleak that will continually be getting worse.

The grass is always greener, isn't it?

I want to live in a country where mindless entertainment doesn't numb the masses to the extent it does here. I want to live in a country where I can travel around the world(for leisure, not for business) and still keep my job! I want to live in a country where they respect the laborer's well-being, where they encourage a healthy balance in life. I want to live in a country where the government is actually looking out for its citizens. I want to live in a country with a somewhat healthy political discourse. I want to live in a country where military-related expenditures don't take up nearly 50% of the annual budget. Etcetera.

Good luck finding one.

I am at an age where I still have the option of emigrating to other countries fairly easily. Why should I stick it out in the US? Why should I sacrifice a better quality of life for staying in the US?

I'll ask the main question again: Do you think we will start seeing an increasing number of Americans LEAVING the US (due to a deteriorating quality of life) to live in other developed countries in the near future?

You have a few obstacles. Unless you can a work permit or obtain a visa/passport for a European nation, you are SOL when it comes to finding a job. It is extremely difficult. If you speak nothing but English, your options are pretty much limited to the UK and Ireland, both of which are having major economic difficulties right now.

Best of luck, but I think you are setting yourself up for failure by building Europe up to be some sort of egalitarian utopia. It isn't!

Basically if you speak only English, have no college degree or have a degree in a "useless" field, and have no connections to a European country, you can pretty much forget it unless you can get your company to transfer you. European nations do not give Americans visas for philosophical reasons. You have to meet the same standards as any other immigrant and those standards can be impossible to meet. You should also realize that some European nations will never allow you to naturalize if you do not share their ethnic heritage (think Germany).

Also, you must also realize that the cost of living in Europe is incredibly high and the wages relative to the US are low. You may find yourself with half the income and twice the living expenses. That is not an unusual scenario at all. You may find yourself giving up some American material comforts out of economic necessity, not choice. That takes some of the fun out of it.

[Fred314X]

No, because I think people have an exaggerated idea of other places being so much "better." Most of the rest of the world still has a ways to go before catching up to us.

[Pandamonium]

There are cases of people who retire to South America (Latin America, etc.) because they cannot afford to retire in the United States.

There is also this:

But if the government is not counting, others are. Estimates made by organizations such as the Association of Americans Resident Overseas put the number of nongovernment-employed Americans living abroad anywhere between 4 million and 7 million, a range whose low end is based loosely on the government's trial count in 1999. Focusing on households rather than individuals (and excluding households in which any member has been sent overseas either by the government or private companies), a series of recent Zogby polls commissioned by New Global Initiatives, a consulting firm, yielded surprising results: 1.6 million U.S. households had already determined to relocate abroad; an additional 1.8 million households were seriously considering such a move, while 7.7 million more were "somewhat seriously" contemplating it. If the data collected in the seven polls conducted between 2005 and 2007 are fairly representative of the current decade, then, by a modest estimate, at least 3 million U.S. citizens a year are venturing abroad. More interesting, the biggest number of relocating households is not those with people in or approaching retirement but those with adults ranging from 25 to 34 years old.

A Growing Trend of Leaving America - US News and World Report


So, yes, yes they are leaving. And yes, we have a brain drain. (Say it ain't so.)

On a personal note, if you have the opportunity to experience the world, then do it. Choosing to give up your citizenship in the US is a private decision and one that I choose not to advise you on.

[jtur88]

No, and it is becoming increasingly difficult for American refugees to find a country that will accept them, for a very obvious and conspicuous and articulated reason. Other countries will not touch an American emigrant with a ten-foot pole because they know exactly why the American wants to come there: Socialized benefits in general and health care in particular.

America is literally the laughing stock of the world, for its refusal to grant its citizens the ordinary benefits that other people take for granted, of which there are three in particular. No universal health care, no free education beyond grade 12, and the waste of national productivity on murderous military adventures instead of social enhancement. Not to mention a number of smaller items, like the gratuitous imprisonment of 2% of the adult population, the death penalty, the invalidity of US passports for travel to some countries, and the perpetuation of childhood with outrageously high drinking age and age of consent, and the absence of Americans among world travelers because nobody gets enough vacation time to get beyond Cape Cod and couldn't speak a second language when they got there.

When most Europans can speak 3 or 4 languages fluently when they graduate from high school, what do they think when they read about American school kids being expelled for daring to speak Spanish to bilingual classmates in the lunchroom? Americans who travel abroad might as well be walking around in a clown suit, for all the respect this country has throughout the rest of the developed world. Other countries don't want refugees from America.

[jc76]

All I can say is IF i had the money I would probably at least look into moving to Europe somewhere. Not that I would for sure, but I would hold it as an option. Things here right now are so limited and everyone seems to be holding off on their dreams. Not that it's better over seas, but it would be worth looking into.

[brightdoglover]

If each European country was 3,000 miles across and some 1200 miles north/south, you can bet individuals wouldn't speak more than one language. Along with that, if people in Maine spoke a different language than Massachusetts spoke a different language than Connecticut, I'm sure we'd all speak several languages.
I was under the impression it is very hard to move to a European country and make a life there (and a living) unless a U.S. job transfers you. I have two long-time American friends living in Europe (two data points). One went to Rome with his American company and has worked there since 1983 and married there. The other lived underground in Germany for almost two years, teaching English for cash, unable to get papers, until he married a local woman (who wanted papers for the U.S.). He worked in his journalism field for 20 years, was laid off in 2005 and has been unemployed since. It is apparently so expensive to have employees that there is very little hiring or job movement, regardless of experience or talent (especially in recent years, never mind the past year).
Regarding that free college, I believe it's free in many countries to people who pass a series of exams and are tracked quite early into university track or not.
The "universal health coverage" varies in type and expense from country to country. I believe Germany has something similar to Massachusetts- required coverage that you pay for, but great treatment, single-payer. (Friend in Hamburg has the best cardiologists in the world). I don't think any European country has the same mishmash of for-profit redundant insurance companies. No doubt we have a real mess here in that area.
Curious. If someone wants to live a more balanced life and not be consumerist and all, why not just... do it? There's no requirement that one be materialistic because of the national boundaries. Maybe it's hard to be an individual and simply live the way you choose when other people are judging and playing the "stuff" game, but surely a sturdy person could do just that in any environment.
Friend in Italy was disgusted with the lack of get-up-and-go in Italy, grumbling, "What's wrong with a little ambition?" It does seem, besides the possibility of rampant male immaturity, that if there's no room to move, people can't make a dream/plan/fetish of moving/succeeding. There is a lot of job lock there because of the expense of hiring someone. There's also a fair amount of social welfare programs going on to keep people from getting too restless.
I am not saying that the U.S. is the only place to live in. I am saying that I often hear people getting all Europhile without knowing why Europe is how it is, and how hard it is to emigrate.

[dspguy]

Even with all of our problems, I wouldn't set foot in another country (well, for vacation I would!). Even with all of the bad, there is a lot of good here.

-A work culture where you are expected to work 50+ hours to be successful

In certain fields, this could be the case. But, I don't think in another country they just hand you "success" while you sit back with your feet up on the desk.

Average vacation days per year in the US are disgustingly low

I'd be curious to know if "fresh-outs" from college get 5 weeks in another country. Since we are similar in age, I can say that if you play your cards right, you can have 4 weeks + 1-2 weeks sick time by 30. I knew one guy that was a service rep for a cell phone company in the Netherlands. He got 2 weeks vacation, 1 week sick. I have no idea if that is the norm, but for a 24 year old guy in his first job, it matched what we get here.

No Public Health Insurance. Look at the rest of the developed world.

Look at them. No one really knows if the public health option is better.

A steadily increasing gap between the super wealthy and the rest of us. A steadily decreasing middle class.

You don't think this is a problem anywhere else?

A society obsessed with consumerism and religion

You don't have to be that way. I certainly am not. I'm a horrible American for not buying thousands of dollars of Christmas gifts on my credit card every year. And I'm going to burn for not going to church. I don't know if consumerism is any worse elsewhere.

However, I would definitely say that other than the "cheap" state schools, the cost of colleges are too much here. The idea of "free college" is appealing.

In my opinion, go find out. Seriously, living in another country could be a real eye opener.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by dspguy

Even with all of our problems, I wouldn't set foot in another country . . . . . . .

In my opinion, go find out. Seriously, living in another country could be a real eye opener.

Were both of these written by the same person?

[dspguy]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Were both of these written by the same person?

Yes. Just because I wouldn't doesn't mean someone else should not.