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Old 10-07-2009, 05:35 PM
 
261 posts, read 402,116 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
No. You'd have to ask people to be sensible and intelligent--and that will never happen.

I mean, there ARE methods, but that would require more government intervention, and I'm already not a fan of that.
Exactly. It will not ever happen. Therefore your argument that extinguishing access to guns will keep people safer, while potentially true, is unrealistic and therefore an invalid solution.

Law-abiding citizens should have easy access to guns as long as criminals do, which will be forever.

 
Old 10-07-2009, 06:51 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 2,336,105 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
I'm 5'6" and weigh 125#. Just about everyone is larger than me. Growing up, there were plenty of people stronger than me also. But this isn't about strength, it's about body mechanics. The body only moves in certain ways, and if you hyperextend a joint, it isn't a function of how strong you are, it's hyperextended.

And the thing is--a gun doesn't make you invincible.
I know you are a little man. You have already told me.

I'm 5'11 250 pounds. I guy your size attempting to hyper extend a experience fighter my size, will fail 99.9% of the time (from experience), and you will end up being thrown around like a child. (that's if the guy my size didn't want to turn your face into mush)

Nothing will make you invincible. But if I am out of arms reach and you have a gun, it puts the balance of power in your hands.
 
Old 10-07-2009, 06:55 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 2,336,105 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Have I said that I've done this? No. I merely explained how it could be done.

With or without a weapon, you're defending against the arm and wrist. Control the arm--which controlling the wrist helps you do--and you eliminate the threat from the arm.

If you are swinging your first at me--and this I have done--I can grab your wrist as I duck beneath your shoulder and lock your arm behind your back.
You live in a fantasy world? You think you can catch a punch and duck "beneath" someones shoulder? Before the have pulled their arm back and loaded up for another shot?
If you can do this, then I suggest you go into mma and make yourself a few million dollars.
Even if you could somehow get my arm behind my back, you couldn't do anything with it. My one arm is stronger then both of yours, even if it is behind my back.
 
Old 10-07-2009, 09:10 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
6,890 posts, read 4,808,603 times
Reputation: 4388
I 've seen some impressive things done with use of unarmed combat methods. By serious pros, with LOTS of real world experience, I've also seen some pretty impressive things done with edged weapons, also by serious pros with LOTS of real world experience. I would not attempt most of these techniques I have seen myself. Especially against a real attacker. They require not just a lot of practice, but a lot of actual combat experience. Grabbing and twisting someones arm, wrist , whatever, regardless of the mechanics used, is no easy thing. An attacker is not going to just let someone gain the leverage required to pull that Steven Segal stuff. A firearm is a weapon that evens the odds, across the board. Even so, it's still a lot harder than just point and shoot. Proper use of a firearm requires a cool head, and having ones head and a$$wired together. Proper mindset, just as with any defensive tactic, is key. The stress a person is under in a defensive situation is incredible. It must be controlled, or things will just implode. Having a firearm in ones hand does not mean that using it to defend yourself is going to be easy. Far from it. A person facing an attacker , unarmed, who is not experienced to the nth degree has it even harder. especially if said attacker is armed and skilled. Thats big doo doo. Thinking ones self capable of taking on this task is not enough. The graveyard is full of guys who THOUGHT they were up to the task, right up to the point their chest became ballistic gel or their throat became a Thanksgiving turkey. We do need more armed and capable good guys on the street. Capable being the key word here. The bad guys have lots of capability rounding out their numbers. They can, and will, use weapons to kill and maim, and this is no action flick. Nobody is going to get a band aid for a shoulder wound and just walk away from a real world assault with a gun or a knife. When the bad guys fear us more than we fear them, I will be happy. Thats the way things should be.
 
Old 10-07-2009, 10:09 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,610 posts, read 3,298,716 times
Reputation: 1226
so, after 14 pages, what have we learned?

that we are too easily distracted from the op by delusional trolls.

that's about it...

if you don't believe me, take a look at all of the gun threads that this troll frequents, and see just how off on a tangent the conversation gets.

i suggest we get back on track, or close it. either one is fine by me.
 
Old 10-07-2009, 10:33 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
6,890 posts, read 4,808,603 times
Reputation: 4388
Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post
so, after 14 pages, what have we learned?

that we are too easily distracted from the op by delusional trolls.

that's about it...

if you don't believe me, take a look at all of the gun threads that this troll frequents, and see just how off on a tangent the conversation gets.

i suggest we get back on track, or close it. either one is fine by me.
. That being said, when one looks at the incidents of people who have defended themselves and their families by use of a firearm, and the mechanics of the shooting are examined, and it becomes plain that not having had said firearm at their disposal would have resulted in the deaths of themselves and their families, and a very happy bad guy, it becomes quite plain that the rewards far outweigh the 'risks' of having a firearm. This drivel about a firearm being more likely to be used to hurt a family member than to stop an attacker has been around forever. It is another limp attempt by anti firearms groups to spread fear. Trying to make their own irrational phobias contagious, and in the same breath try and say that gun owners are fear mongers. I say we are far less afraid than the antis are.This magic power that the hoplophobes attribute to firearms mystifies me. By mere presence alone, a firearm cause mortal danger, and said tool has but ONE purpose. As an instrument of death. I beg to differ. Shooting is an athletic endeavor, and a fine one to get into at that. Wiring the mind and body together, teaching responsibility to youngsters, learning them about mecahanical engineering, math, chemistry, physics, and lets not forget art. Finishing a fine piece of wood into a beautiful stock, or pair of grips, engraving, metal finishing, and fitting etc. Taking a beat up old .22, found at a yard sale for 20 bucks and teaching a kid how to treat a gun by re finishing it to proper condition. Oh, I could go on and on, but you get the point. Shooting and firearms ownership is a GOOD thing. It goes far deeper than the intent of the 2nd amendment. Tradition,responsibility, art, acedemics, all promoted through the shooting sports and firearms ownership. Ain't life grand!!
 
Old 10-08-2009, 05:15 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,238 posts, read 25,711,145 times
Reputation: 10554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
You live in a fantasy world? You think you can catch a punch and duck "beneath" someones shoulder? Before the have pulled their arm back and loaded up for another shot?
If you can do this, then I suggest you go into mma and make yourself a few million dollars.
Even if you could somehow get my arm behind my back, you couldn't do anything with it. My one arm is stronger then both of yours, even if it is behind my back.
I don't "think" it, I know it. I've already DONE it...more than once. People think they can get away with attacking someone smaller than them. I've proved them wrong. My life has given me all the "experience" I need.

And it doesn't matter if you were stronger than me, which I doubt. It works. But I've done nothing but physical labor--without the benefit of tools--my entire working life.
 
Old 10-08-2009, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,238 posts, read 25,711,145 times
Reputation: 10554
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
. That being said, when one looks at the incidents of people who have defended themselves and their families by use of a firearm, and the mechanics of the shooting are examined, and it becomes plain that not having had said firearm at their disposal would have resulted in the deaths of themselves and their families, and a very happy bad guy, it becomes quite plain that the rewards far outweigh the 'risks' of having a firearm. This drivel about a firearm being more likely to be used to hurt a family member than to stop an attacker has been around forever. It is another limp attempt by anti firearms groups to spread fear. Trying to make their own irrational phobias contagious, and in the same breath try and say that gun owners are fear mongers. I say we are far less afraid than the antis are.This magic power that the hoplophobes attribute to firearms mystifies me. By mere presence alone, a firearm cause mortal danger, and said tool has but ONE purpose. As an instrument of death. I beg to differ. Shooting is an athletic endeavor, and a fine one to get into at that. Wiring the mind and body together, teaching responsibility to youngsters, learning them about mecahanical engineering, math, chemistry, physics, and lets not forget art. Finishing a fine piece of wood into a beautiful stock, or pair of grips, engraving, metal finishing, and fitting etc. Taking a beat up old .22, found at a yard sale for 20 bucks and teaching a kid how to treat a gun by re finishing it to proper condition. Oh, I could go on and on, but you get the point. Shooting and firearms ownership is a GOOD thing. It goes far deeper than the intent of the 2nd amendment. Tradition,responsibility, art, acedemics, all promoted through the shooting sports and firearms ownership. Ain't life grand!!

And the stories where a gun owner shot his kid sneaking in in the middle of the night, or where a kid has taken a gun his parents owned to school, or where one five year old shoots another five year old--those never happened.

I get it now. If it's negative, it obviously was made up. I'll bet you Columbine High School would be glad to know it, and glad that there was a 2nd Amendment.
 
Old 10-08-2009, 05:22 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,238 posts, read 25,711,145 times
Reputation: 10554
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjs08 View Post
Exactly. It will not ever happen. Therefore your argument that extinguishing access to guns will keep people safer, while potentially true, is unrealistic and therefore an invalid solution.

Law-abiding citizens should have easy access to guns as long as criminals do, which will be forever.

I'm not saying it couldn't--just that it would require more government intervention. Which I'm no fan of. You can't trust people to be sensible, so that's out.
 
Old 10-08-2009, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,238 posts, read 25,711,145 times
Reputation: 10554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
I know you are a little man. You have already told me.

I'm 5'11 250 pounds. I guy your size attempting to hyper extend a experience fighter my size, will fail 99.9% of the time (from experience), and you will end up being thrown around like a child. (that's if the guy my size didn't want to turn your face into mush)

Nothing will make you invincible. But if I am out of arms reach and you have a gun, it puts the balance of power in your hands.
The guy that broke into my home weighed about 250. I don't think he was 5'11", maybe 5'9". I escorted him out the door in a head lock. He never came back.
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