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This type of communicate just doesn't work. When did I say "delusional"? I would appreciate it if you show just a slight bit of dignity and reply to what I said, and not what you think I mean.
If you are unable to articulate why you claimed that DNA is equivalent to a PC then I have not choice but to brush you off as someone who is ignorant of the subject. Just throwing out professors names is not enough to convince me of your position (that evolution is wrong), but it is a debating fallacy.
Clearly you are at odds with intelligent evolutionary scientists that I have quoted on this very subject. You clearly don't like the fact that you do not have an answer to my original question even when I post links to what the latest evolutionary thinking today is. By your continued stance with the old school understanding, you show yourself to be at odds with others of your own faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
Another bold claim. Entire ecosystems, over and over have died out long before we ever showed up....
Actually, this is not a discussion of a localized Mount St Helens eco-catastrophy or some extinction asteroid fable, I was refering to the present globalwide down turn for which this world's intellectual geniuses are clearly responsible, be they religious, political or from Big-business/Science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
Mud to man is what bible literalist believe, not what science has predicted.
No, it wouldn't take billions of years to test. Even if we found out how life can begin on its own, there is no way of knowing that is the way it happen on earth at lease at our current technological level.
No the "Mud to Man" is nothing more than a quick summary to the term "evolution" in what is usually otherwise more lengthy rehash of the same old same old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
Do you know in physics, ignoring the statistical probability, for all intents and purposes we consider the ejection of alpha particles as "random"? Many people such as yourself argue that there is no such thing as "random". You may be right, but "random" can also mean something else, such as rain drops scatter pattern on the ground. We consider this pattern random, but if you knew all the variable, theoretically you could predict the pattern. But just like in "random" mutations, there is no current way for us to predict when a mutation will happen. But we can put a statistical probability on it after collecting some (more like a lot) of data. This is why I accept the idea of "random" in 'random mutations'.
Yes most experiment need a "direction", and natural selection provides that "direction" needed for evolution.
From a strictly materialist mindset, I can understand why you find the need to argue from that point of view. But any engineered informational code/s are not of a materialist origin. Let me quote you what Norbert Wiener , MIT Mathematician and Founder of Cybernetics
“Information is Information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive the present day.”
Yes, I can understand why some experimentation has to be rigged, as in the case of the E.coli experiments. Bacteria do what they do at almost supercomputer speeds, they have an explosional growth rate. It would take huge volumes of money, staff and time to save every generation, but that nevertheless eliminates anything naturally occuring or observed. Even natural selection could'nt be observed in such an experiment because since there is an is artificial selection method element to the study, then natural selection cannot be observed. You will always have the intelligence of the researcher's fingerprints all over the thing. Certainly no randomness could be observed either. Sadly for our world, the cult scientific thinking of randomness of mutations has had a negative effect on applications within our human society.
It must also be asked, "Just what do any E.coli do and what is their function and purpose in the first place anyway ???"
They are programmed, engineered and built for recyling and processing food waste in all warm blooded organisms. We need them or we'd starve. We also can observe that the information inside their DNA is a brilliantly engineered programming for adapting to any set of circumstances in processing various things they encounter. Even the trillions of species of soil organisms are needed for consumption and recycling of used materials. Without these our planet's life would fail. Sunflowers with certain bacteria on their roots at the Chernobyl accident site were found to have cleaned up much of the contamination in the areas they were present in. Interestingly, this is not a surprise or evolutionary wonder, it's called algorithmic engineered programming inside their DNA for adapting to just such a situation.
The biggest problem coming up however is that many of these ecosystems are starting to fail across the globe. Why ??? Mostly because of the inventions created by scientists and used by irresponsible earthwide population of humankind. But our world's economy fails if it's humanss don't continue on a destructive repititive course of consume consume consume. Much of this world's technology as Viktor Schauberger put it, "is based on a continued destruction of something". Let's face it, science is strictly a power and wealth driven machine without question. Here's a prime example of a currect crisis scientific blunder.
Science invents and creates billions upon billions of things for humans to consume and discard. In their view, after making profit off your consumption, it is your responsibility to handle waster not theirs. Here's something specific that touches on this same subject of that constantly morphing wonderful evolutionary random mutational ability of the amazing E.coli bacteria. Scientific inventions continually every second get discarded and make their way eventually to all of this planet's ocean environs. Right now, there are five major (actually this was just on CNN last week), what other responsible scientists call Great_Oceanic_Garbage_Patches which are nothing more than massive amounts of fithy garbage funneled together in the vortex ocean currents created by the Coriolis effect in all five major Oceanic Gyres. Here's a map of the gyres and the news said every one of them contain several miles in diameter circulating filth from humans.
These garbage gyres are killing massive amounts of aquatic life as well as birds. Notice these photos taken from the Island of Midway which is closest to the Northern Pacific Garbage Gyre and perhaps you can cite a scientific explanation for why these amazing E.coli bacteria in the digestive tracts of these birds are'nt evolutionarily morphing quick enough to handle and compensate for digesting the garbage brought to them by science and scientists and their masters who employ them.
Yes, because we are trying to find the truth, not trying to make our self look superior to everyone else.. Don't deny it, there is a reason why you keep bring up education, spelling, and location.
Now this comment was confusing because from the quote you were citing of the difference of opinion and understanding between you and GCSTroop I simply was pointing out, I made absolutely no reference to your spelling, education or residency. Here's the quote you cited: Bluepacific
"You conflict with him also and he with you on many of these points and issues."
So what did I miss here
It's no one's intention here of embarrassing anybody, show someone up or make one's self superior to someone else here. Just one question has been asked and it has been refused or avoided. However when outrageous claims are made without proof, then they need to be addressed. Each person has the ability to show themselves to be the fool without anyone else's assistance in the matter. Nothing in that quote suggested that, so I'm not understanding what the purpose was, other than to tell us you still don't have an answer to that original question.
Sorry, but that's how it looks.
Last edited by bluepacific; 11-08-2009 at 07:03 AM..
I have yet to see anything evolve into anything else. Nor do I see any reason why anything would. It makes no sense to me. Anybody can look at an old bone of a mastodon, and say it evolved from a field mouse, but I doubt it. Darwin was a nut job, with money and time on his hands.
I suggest you take a college biology class and see the changes in a dish. Or better yet, just watch the news and see how from year to year flu mutates, changes, evolves. Your theory of gravity is shorthand for the more elaborate theory. A few physics classes are in order.
I suggest you take a college biology class and see the changes in a dish. Or better yet, just watch the news and see how from year to year flu mutates, changes, evolves. Your theory of gravity is shorthand for the more elaborate theory. A few physics classes are in order.
Is that the one where the fish turns into a bull dog?? A butterfly morphing out of a caterpillar chrysalis, is not evolution.
You fail to address several of your claims.
Quote mining scientist is so yesterday. Haven't IDer come up with anything new already?
Anything can be called information, the information is how we record, or describe this "anything". I have answer all you questions that have been on topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaskateguy
Is that the one where the fish turns into a bull dog?? A butterfly morphing out of a caterpillar chrysalis, is not evolution.
Caterpillar Metamorphosis process is not evolution.
You fail to address several of your claims.
Quote mining scientist is so yesterday. Haven't IDer come up with anything new already?
Anything can be called information, the information is how we record, or describe this "anything". I have answer all you questions that have been on topic.
Caterpillar Metamorphosis process is not evolution.
You fail to address several of your claims.
Quote mining scientist is so yesterday. Haven't IDer come up with anything new already?
I have addressed every claim. However your ability to grasp has been limited by your lack of understanding and knowledge which can indeed be corrected. Here's what you have to do.
First dump the old time religious version of random mutations. Scientist's now know that there are algorithms genes for engineering a solution to adapt to environmental changes and challenges. Lifeforms do so intelligently although they do not understand the informational processes consciously as we do. These adaptation abilities are a pre-programmed variation mechanism and allow variation within any species according to it's kind. It's engineered through a designed mechanism, even the cooperation with other organisms within any specific ecosystem. The biggest fundamental problem with the random mutations dogma, is that they are always ongoing, evenly distributed and usually any real information is usually lost as opposed to any gain.
Second, read the published reports. There was no quote mining here. I quote only a portion to make a point and gave the link for the entire published information. Therefore you have always without fail had the entire scientific information at your educational disposal to do with as you see fit. As I have stated, if this information has disrupted your worldview, it has nothing to do with me. Take it up with the researchers who've discovered these things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
Anything can be called information, the information is how we record, or describe this "anything".
Strictly speaking, DNA is not like a code, it is a code of information for which numerous brilliant things are accomplished. Once again, evolution requires replication. The encoded information inside DNA is the only informational driving mechanism for replication for a living thing. Evolution & "random mutations" in no way can give us a satisfying answer for the existance of DNA.
A scientific stance on refusing to recognize an intelligently designed mechanism is totally irresponsible. Here's a prime irresponsible "evolutionary application" that atheistic scientifism makes for which humankind will continue to pay the consequences for. Here is the recent published article from just last year in New Scientist online magazine.
Evolutionary Applications contains many more examples of the importance of applied evolution (content is free during 2008). All doctors, for instance, should read the summary of why understanding and applying evolution matters in medicine, written by Randolph Nesse at the University of Michigan.
Nesse says that progress is being hampered by the fact that many medics still think of the body as a machine designed by an engineer, when in fact it is a "bundle of compromises ... designed to maximise reproduction, not health".
There is no question about the importance of applied evolution. The trouble is, if biologists themselves are only just waking up to how relevant and crucial evolution can be, what hope is there of educating the leaders and policy makers who need to understand and act upon this research? Not much, I fear.
This is one of the most irresponsible pieces ever written. I hope doctors never stop looking at the human body as designed by an engineer. The moment they all start viewing it as a bundle of random compromised mistakes and random good luck, then the medical field will go further down hill than it already is heading. Taking a Marxist view of biology will never benefit humankind.
"Evolutionary Applications" ??? We have a long documented history of human suffering as a result of using it's Marxian applications. If you think that's all in the past, think again.
Last edited by bluepacific; 11-09-2009 at 03:21 AM..
My question if we were intelligently designed, then why do we even need oxygen, food, or water? I would think that a power capable of producing the universe would be capable of coming up with a being that didn't require all of these special amenities to survive.
My question has always been, If we are made in Gods image, and are the prime beings on the planet, then why do we need clothes and housing to survive. Why can't we just live naturally like Deer, or Horses? Why do we need jobs? And why are we the only beings on the Planet, that produce garbage? And the only being that kill for pleasure, and not just for food?---If that is being number one, then I think we also like to fool ourselves, with fantasies of undeserved grandeur.
I have addressed every claim. However your ability to grasp has been limited by your lack of understanding and knowledge which can indeed be corrected. Here's what you have to do.
First dump the old time religious version of random mutations. Scientist's now know that there are algorithms genes for engineering a solution to adapt to environmental changes and challenges. Lifeforms do so intelligently although they do not understand the informational processes consciously as we do. These adaptation abilities are a pre-programmed variation mechanism and allow variation within any species according to it's kind. It's engineered through a designed mechanism, even the cooperation with other organisms within any specific ecosystem. The biggest fundamental problem with the random mutations dogma, is that they are always ongoing, evenly distributed and usually any real information is usually lost as opposed to any gain.
Random mutations is not religious. Stop trying to reduce science to the same dogmatic beliefs you have.
My skin gets darker the longer I stay out in the sun, my body starts feeding on itself to protect my major organs when I am starving, and my pupils change shape depending on the intensity of light.
I don't see how this refutes random mutations.
No one claim mutations alone will cause adaptations. Natural selection with random mutations and dna copy errors molds or "engineers" organisms to be better suited for the environment they inhabit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific
Second, read the published reports. There was no quote mining here. I quote only a portion to make a point and gave the link for the entire published information. Therefore you have always without fail had the entire scientific information at your educational disposal to do with as you see fit. As I have stated, if this information has disrupted your worldview, it has nothing to do with me. Take it up with the researchers who've discovered these things.
I have not read one publish report stating that DNA can change itself so the organism can adapt to the environment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific
Strictly speaking, DNA is not like a code, it is a code of information for which numerous brilliant things are accomplished. Once again, evolution requires replication. The encoded information inside DNA is the only informational driving mechanism for replication for a living thing. Evolution & "random mutations" in no way can give us a satisfying answer for the existance of DNA.
If you would be so kind and answer me this. How does bacteria change it's own dna?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific
A scientific stance on refusing to recognize an intelligently designed mechanism is totally irresponsible. Here's a prime irresponsible "evolutionary application" that atheistic scientifism makes for which humankind will continue to pay the consequences for. Here is the recent published article from just last year in New Scientist online magazine.
lol....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific
Putting-Evolution-Theory-Into-Practice
This is one of the most irresponsible pieces ever written. I hope doctors never stop looking at the human body as designed by an engineer. The moment they all start viewing it as a bundle of random compromised mistakes and random good luck, then the medical field will go further down hill than it already is heading. Taking a Marxist view of biology will never benefit humankind.
"Evolutionary Applications" ??? We have a long documented history of human suffering as a result of using it's Marxian applications. If you think that's all in the past, think again.
Just because some people dislike the fact the world is not flat, it doesn;t make it so
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I have answer all you questions that have been on topic.
