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Old 10-16-2009, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
32,939 posts, read 26,482,487 times
Reputation: 14923
I believe we need a policy of employ Americans first until we run out of qualified Americans. I believe the same thing applies to manufactured goods and the construction workforce. These can be achieved with countervailing tariffs. When an immigrant IT worker is employed by a company at a discount price the difference between the cost of the imported worked and an American is neutralized by sending the difference to the federal government. Same should apply to manufactured goods and construction workers.

Let the Chinese and Indian educate their scientists and engineers to work in their countries and manufacture stuff for their own use. That way they will develop their own economies and not suck capital and profits from us. Our, and the world’s, financiers will object but when 1% of the people own over 50% of the economy they are fair game in the fight to create an egalitarian society and economy.
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:44 AM
 
4,261 posts, read 3,143,594 times
Reputation: 11337
I believe we need a policy of employ Americans first until we run out of qualified Americans. I believe the same thing applies to manufactured goods and the construction workforce. These can be achieved with countervailing tariffs. When an immigrant IT worker is employed by a company at a discount price the difference between the cost of the imported worked and an American is neutralized by sending the difference to the federal government. Same should apply to manufactured goods and construction workers.

Let the Chinese and Indian educate their scientists and engineers to work in their countries and manufacture stuff for their own use. That way they will develop their own economies and not suck capital and profits from us. Our, and the world’s, financiers will object but when 1% of the people own over 50% of the economy they are fair game in the fight to create an egalitarian society and economy.

.................................................. ...............................................

There are many, many problems with what you propose. For starters, we have already agreed with many nations (CAFTA, NAFTA, etc.) to not employ tariffs and other protectionist mechanisms to preclude trade with many foreign countries. However, even if we haven't done so, its evident to me that many people don't understand that free trade tends to work to the advantage of all the countries that participate in it.

Let's begin with the notion that things like labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurial talent are not distributed evenly throughout the nations of the world. Since they are not evenly distributed throughout the world, the notion that it would be playing "fair" by letting all the countries keep their own products and other resources (including both uneducated and educated laborers) is simply mistaken. Japan, for example, is a comparatively small nation with few natural resources. If no one traded with Japan, the Japanese would definitely be a poor and underprivileged nation. Yet, Japan is not a poor and underprivileged nation because of free trade. Japan's principle resource was educated labor and a populace that was very patient and willing to undergo hardship to succeed. Japan has developed a reputation for having some of the best engineers and designers in this world.

The next question though is have other nations benefitted from trading with Japan? Whether we want to admit it or not the USA has benefitted considerably. Try to imagine how poor the quality of American automobiles would be if our auto industry had not faced competition from Japan. They'd probably still be getting ten miles to a gallon of gasoline. Try to imagine what our electronics would be like and other consumer goods. We might still be listening to radios and tv's with vacuum tubes rather than integrated circuits and microchips.

The notion of employing just Americans until that pool of talent runs out has some problems too. What if all the American employees want to be paid $175,000 a year plus benefits? That pool of talent might not "run out", but the price of a personal computer might be $5,000.00 if we adopt that policy.

I'm not without sympathy for these computer engineers who are complaining here. But I wonder how many of those complaining aren't just a little bit hypocritical? How many of them drive Toyotas, Nissans, or Hondas rather than Fords or Chevys? And, how many of them even think about all the other Americans who have been put out of work by foreigners like clothing makers? This country used to be full of textile mills and now most of those are gone.

I'm not a computer engineer and I have voluntarily chosen to drive American cars for some complicated reasons that involve my particular needs and my love for Ford products. Do you computer engineers always buy American first? Frankly, I doubt it.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:25 PM
 
2,172 posts, read 2,365,912 times
Reputation: 1446
Actually, my husband and I attempt to buy American, not because we are in technical professions, but because he was born in Detroit and has seen what the collapse in that manufacturing sector has done to the community. When you know better, you should attempt to do better. Our last car purchase was a Dodge, Thank you!

The point is not that we need to be American first. Yes, we are in the age of the global market place. I do think people have the right to be concerned about the job market for American workers. IT and engineering jobs are good, solid middle class professions. India is transforming their country(or a good part of it) exploiting the "cheaper/better/faster" model that appeals to corporate America. That's fine..... but short sighted. What happens to the AMerican middle class when those jobs are squeezed out...either by foreign worked in AMerica or outsourced to other countries? Service sector jobs? Walmart? Customer service reps?

Lastly, I'm not sure what Cafta/Nafta have to do with this discussion. You are talking apples and we are talking oranges. There are weak provissions associated with the granting of H1b Visas. The employers has to have made an attempt at finding qualified applicants for positions. The problem is that the language is weak. There is an entire sub-industry in the IT contracting community that works at finding the least qualified American applicants for jobs so that they have the paper trail to justify hiring H1b visa candidates.

I have no idea what you do for a living or if you have children. But you should be concerned about future generations and what their future holds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I believe we need a policy of employ Americans first until we run out of qualified Americans. I believe the same thing applies to manufactured goods and the construction workforce. These can be achieved with countervailing tariffs. When an immigrant IT worker is employed by a company at a discount price the difference between the cost of the imported worked and an American is neutralized by sending the difference to the federal government. Same should apply to manufactured goods and construction workers.

Let the Chinese and Indian educate their scientists and engineers to work in their countries and manufacture stuff for their own use. That way they will develop their own economies and not suck capital and profits from us. Our, and the world’s, financiers will object but when 1% of the people own over 50% of the economy they are fair game in the fight to create an egalitarian society and economy.

.................................................. ...............................................

There are many, many problems with what you propose. For starters, we have already agreed with many nations (CAFTA, NAFTA, etc.) to not employ tariffs and other protectionist mechanisms to preclude trade with many foreign countries. However, even if we haven't done so, its evident to me that many people don't understand that free trade tends to work to the advantage of all the countries that participate in it.

Let's begin with the notion that things like labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurial talent are not distributed evenly throughout the nations of the world. Since they are not evenly distributed throughout the world, the notion that it would be playing "fair" by letting all the countries keep their own products and other resources (including both uneducated and educated laborers) is simply mistaken. Japan, for example, is a comparatively small nation with few natural resources. If no one traded with Japan, the Japanese would definitely be a poor and underprivileged nation. Yet, Japan is not a poor and underprivileged nation because of free trade. Japan's principle resource was educated labor and a populace that was very patient and willing to undergo hardship to succeed. Japan has developed a reputation for having some of the best engineers and designers in this world.

The next question though is have other nations benefitted from trading with Japan? Whether we want to admit it or not the USA has benefitted considerably. Try to imagine how poor the quality of American automobiles would be if our auto industry had not faced competition from Japan. They'd probably still be getting ten miles to a gallon of gasoline. Try to imagine what our electronics would be like and other consumer goods. We might still be listening to radios and tv's with vacuum tubes rather than integrated circuits and microchips.

The notion of employing just Americans until that pool of talent runs out has some problems too. What if all the American employees want to be paid $175,000 a year plus benefits? That pool of talent might not "run out", but the price of a personal computer might be $5,000.00 if we adopt that policy.

I'm not without sympathy for these computer engineers who are complaining here. But I wonder how many of those complaining aren't just a little bit hypocritical? How many of them drive Toyotas, Nissans, or Hondas rather than Fords or Chevys? And, how many of them even think about all the other Americans who have been put out of work by foreigners like clothing makers? This country used to be full of textile mills and now most of those are gone.

I'm not a computer engineer and I have voluntarily chosen to drive American cars for some complicated reasons that involve my particular needs and my love for Ford products. Do you computer engineers always buy American first? Frankly, I doubt it.
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:33 PM
 
434 posts, read 627,381 times
Reputation: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by oberon_1 View Post
BS #1 - Do you have any idea what America used to be in innovation and industry?
BS argument. That was then. This is now.

Quote:
Where there enough engineers in the 50s and 60s but in 2000 they vanished in thin air?
You should first go back and re-read everything. It's pretty boneheaded to compare the S & T landscape of the 1950s with that of the early 2000's, don't you think? How many software companies were there back then? Were PCs available? Cell phones? Please think first!!! Even high school grads understand how their career prospect might change in 10 years!

Quote:
Yes, I know that the corporations would like you to think so, but at least they have a clear financial interest. What is your interest?
Sorry. I don't think you know anything about corporations.

Quote:
Slow down body... Just cool down...Take a glass of cold water, it helps. I have yet to see the Americans (or Canadians or West Europeans) witing in line to move to China or India
Is this supposed to be remotely on point?

Quote:
But are the CEOs that make 20, 50 or $100M REALLY worth that money?
No. The vast majority of them aren't worth 50K in my opinion. What's your point?
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
1,273 posts, read 942,833 times
Reputation: 480
FWIW, one of co-workers, who came over here on an H-1B visa, says that the government is making it much harder for people to qualify for it now due to increasing "protectionism".
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Old 10-17-2009, 10:17 PM
 
52 posts, read 78,717 times
Reputation: 50
No matter how much you shout in this board, corporates will do what they want to do. If you don't like it open your own company.
H1-B is better than shipping work to offshore. All the big IT companies(Microsoft, HP, IBM, Adobe..etc) have offices in India. If the H1-B is restricted, they will simply move more work to India.
It's all about supply and demand. If the demand is high new suppliers will keep coming and will try to undercut each other until the profit margin becomes very low.
Today it's India's day. Tomorrow may be some other country like Philippines will produce better or cheaper workers and will take lion's share of H1-B and offshoring work.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:45 PM
 
5,265 posts, read 11,152,006 times
Reputation: 3240
Wow, those letters are sure true to what I have been hearing also.... thanks. Yet our politicians seem to ignore all this! A truly bad program fraught with loopholes. It needs to go away.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:25 AM
 
1 posts, read 2,014 times
Reputation: 11
Dear all,
unfortunately what I read in this blog is the mirror of the America crisis..
65,000 H1B per year cannot ruin a country, instead, you should learn from the international workers who are hired because in many fields they are much more prerared that average Us citizens..
You have 9 million of unemployed....the problem is not 65,000 H1B, you have much bigger problem...
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:21 AM
 
2,172 posts, read 2,365,912 times
Reputation: 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by francy View Post
Dear all,
unfortunately what I read in this blog is the mirror of the America crisis..
65,000 H1B per year cannot ruin a country, instead, you should learn from the international workers who are hired because in many fields they are much more prerared that average Us citizens..
You have 9 million of unemployed....the problem is not 65,000 H1B, you have much bigger problem...
Francy, first off, your numbers are wrong when you talk about the numbers of H1B visa holders.

Second, no one is arguing that America is ruined. It must be a pretty good place since immigrants, including those scrambling to get their H1B visas, all over the world are trying to come here.

Third, the employment problem in this country is multifacted.

I'm guessing you are not from this country since you say "you have a much bigger problem". I'm wondering if I would be allowed to do in your country, what you are allowed to do in mine. I doubt it.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:29 PM
 
169 posts, read 487,281 times
Reputation: 103
I don't think you are very familiar with how H1B's work at all.

Firstly, they do not act to replace American workers, but rather fill voids in positions that can not be filled with American workers.

When an employer determines that they can not fill a vacancy, they have to file a form that registers their company with Immigration (cost $2000-$2500). Then they have to advertise in both local and National trade magazines for the position they want to fill (this can cost anywhere from $600 -to $3000+ depending on the trade). They have to collect resumes and interview a specific percentage of them (internal costs to employer). If they still have not found a qualified American for the position, then they can apply for a H1B visa for the foreign national (average cost 8000-10000$). They have to pay the foreign national the going rate for the profession (and this is cross-checked into a program the government has which collects data on which profession earns in each American state & county.) H1B's will not be granted to an employer who is not paying the national average. It can take many months to go through this complicated and costly process - so most employers have to be fairly motivated to do so. Also, the employers may not discriminate against H1B employees and must provide them with any and all benefits that are offered to the companies other employees. For most employers, this all works out to more trouble than it is worth.
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