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Old 10-22-2009, 05:24 PM
 
6,163 posts, read 7,084,087 times
Reputation: 3534

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Quote:
Originally Posted by austinite45 View Post
BS argument. That was then. This is now.

You should first go back and re-read everything. It's pretty boneheaded to compare the S & T landscape of the 1950s with that of the early 2000's, don't you think? How many software companies were there back then? Were PCs available? Cell phones? Please think first!!! Even high school grads understand how their career prospect might change in 10 years!
No country or society changes that fast. Sure, economic circumstances change daily, but culture, traditions and character take much longer, unless you impose a foreign invasion like America had seen in the last decades. The simple truth was that in those days educated Asian immigrants were in small numbers and America had to do with what was available. It worked quite well... Every technological invention you mention was invented in the States, by American scientists. The first transistor at Bell labs - no, they didn't consider doing it in Japan, or bringing in millions of foreigners, although that must have been a cheaper alternative at those times as well. The same for data communications, computers... you name it. It was all worked here in the US.
Quote:
I don't think you know anything about corporations.
I don't want to get into personal arguments, but I have a feeling that I spent more years in high tech companies then your total age. I worked in startups, medium sized corporations and a huge well known company and unfortunately had seen them in action. I witnessed companies going out of business, downsizing, merged and acquired. I know them... quite well.
Quote:
No. The vast majority of them aren't worth 50K in my opinion. What's your point?
Who do you mean aren't worth $50K? If you refer to CEOs, then I will disagree, once again. There are good and bad. In general, its not an easy job and any person with such responsibility has to be rewarded accordingly. The question is how much. That said, everyone in this country seems to have a problem with engineers wages, but when you ask about the astronomical CEO packages, then youre answered that its a private enterprise and its not your business. In one word - its OK to dump hundreds of millions on executives (even of failing companies) but its bad for the business to reward engineers.

Last edited by oberon_1; 10-22-2009 at 05:41 PM..
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,657 posts, read 37,376,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Read Culture of Critique View Post
Here's a letter somebody forwarded to me:

I worked for Adobe Systems in San Jose, CA from Oct-Dec 2005 in a software engineering group as a contractor. Upon starting work I noticed that the company was jammed to the ceiling with foreign guest workers - mostly from India and China. In IT positions in the company there were barely 15% Americans overall. Our tiny group was mostly Americans because all worked on a niche computing platform that doesn't focus on Windows. Most of my coworkers were Americans and my immediate boss was an American. However, his boss was from India and was apparently new to the company and had only been there about 5 months before I got there. In meetings I would notice that this senior Indian manager would constantly talk about "cross-training". The company had rooms full of foreign guest workers doing nothing but sitting around learning new skills, not developing products. I would notice many of these foreign workers often going to the office of the technical lead in our group to ask him how things were done. The senior Indian manager himself didn't really seem to know what he was doing as I would always hear him asking rudimentary development questions in the project manager's office adjacent to mine. One time I even heard him asking the project manager where he got a prerelease installation CD for Microsoft's upcoming operating system. The answer of course was "MSDN". The project manager was an American also. One would think a highly skilled, highly educated senior IT manager from India would know such basic IT information, but apparently not.

There was also another engineering manager in another group who appeared to be from Viet Nam. She spoke broken English and was difficult to understand at times. I was tasked with writing some software for her group. Upon starting the project I asked her for a project GANTT chart for the tasks I was to work on. A GANTT chart is a standard project planning tool used on all properly run software projects. She didn't even know what a GANTT chart was. Her idea of good software development practices was to send daily emails to developers saying "Oh and one more thing...". She of course went home at 6 every night so she could watch TV while we had to stay until midnight to struggle with the ensuing chaos she created. She didn't know the first thing about developing software. It does make one wonder why we are bringing these people into the country if they don't already possess the skills claimed.

After about two months Adobe acquired Macromedia and it was announced a few weeks ahead of time that there would be layoffs as a result of the merger. I didn't mind the layoffs so much as the way they happened and *who* was and was not laid off. I ended up getting laid off, as did my American boss, as did the American project manager in the office next to me. One other senior American Windows engineer in our group was laid off after being with Adobe 8 years. In a former life he had worked on the Xerox Star at PARC. Nope - no skills there! I guess he is one of the American workers who is not smart enough to work in American companies or one of the highly skilled American workers that companies claim they can't "find". In the end 5 people were laid off from our group. One was of Chinese descent but the other 4 were Americans - U.S. Citizens.

Two of the 4 laid off Americans in our group were REPLACED with two foreign Indian workers from within the company. One took my old manager's job, and one took the Windows installer engineer's job. The new Indian manager who replaced my boss came running around with a big smile on his face shaking everyone's hand the next day with glee introducing himself and telling everyone he would be managing the group "going forward". He could barely constrain his excitement. Both Indian workers were directly promoted to their new positions by the senior Indian manager in our group.

So in the end the senior Indian engineering manager took the merger and layoffs as a prime opportunity to slash Americans from the workforce, and to promote Indians into the same positions. I've seen this happen at nearly every company I've worked at. It's an American worker replacement program. These people coming into the country possess little or zero of the skills claimed. The real goal is to get them into the country, TRANSFER the skills of existing American workers to them first, and then lay off the American workers. This has been the case at nearly every software company I have worked at in the past 8 years. It's a mass skills transference plan on a national level. Of course, the CEOs and executives high up in these American companies are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are being conned, because all they see are the dollar signs from the money the Indians promise they will save. Of course in the end it never works because after 8 years of these shennanigans Silicon Valley is a wasteland of FOR LEASE signs.

None of these imported workers have delivered any of the economic benefits we were promised in 1998 when these programs were increased to mass levels. In fact, the opposite has happened. Instead of keeping the 90s booming economy going, these 3rd world workers have sucked it dry. Silicon Valley is dying and it is because these stupid companies are importing millions of fake workers under fraudulent pretenses and then the workers aren't producing anything. All the 3rd world workers know is "IT is a good way to get rich". So they come to Silicon Valley and the companies collapse. They move from company to company kicking out productive Americans, taking skills and money, and then not producing anything. When the company collapses they move on to the next one. One company after another goes under and the CEOs wonder why they can't make this business model work anymore.

The Indian workers could care less about whether they destroy the companies or not. All they care about is taking. As one Indian worker said "We have to get our money before the Chinese do". Yes, GET is their operative word. CREATE is not in their vocabulary. Meanwhile the very American workers who created the industry are deliberately being kept out of the workforce by managers like the senior Indian engineering manager at Adobe - so that unskilled Indian workers can have "jobs". What is actually happening is that these imported workers are enjoying the benefits of the 20 million jobs Americans created in the 90s long before they got here. The imported workers are enjoying having those jobs now but they are not maintaining them nor are they creating new ones. They are getting a free ride coasting on jobs Americans created. Meanwhile the very American workers who GAVE them these jobs are being kicked out of their own job market by the imported workers themselves. That is the way 3rd world gratitude works I guess. This entire thing has been a fraudulent racket from day one.

There are plenty of IT jobs in America - it's just that Americans are not being allowed to work in them and ones who are working in them are having their skills stolen from them and then they are being kicked out of the industry they have created. This is happening all over America on a huge scale. Americans can't find jobs because they are being deliberately excluded from their own job market by racist Indians who will only hire other Indians for positions in IT. Our government is either complicit in the process or else they are too stupid to know they are being conned also.

The fact that nearly none of these workers possess the skills claimed and the fact that they are being given skills from existing American workers means that these guest worker programs amount to fraud. They are intended to deceive the American people. Intent to deceive is fraud. All guest workers imported since 1998 should be deported immediately and the jobs be given back to American workers. Laws should be passed that impose criminal penalties and jail time for any American executive that participates in such acts of fraud. Imported guest workers who engage in such behavior should be banned from ever entering the country again.

Now you know the truth about these fraudulent guest worker visa programs. Greedy CEOs and executives are giving away America's most important economic engine to unskilled, uneducated 3rd worlders just so they can save a few bucks right now. These programs have been a total disaster for California's economy and for Silicon Valley. They should all be ended immediately before they destroy the U.S.

Here's another letter forwarded to me:

I worked for Cisco Systems of San Jose, CA for almost four years. I was the last American to work in the Oracle Database Administration department of approximately 25 individuals at this site. Almost all of the remaining DBAs are from India on H1-B visas. Other technical departments have extremely similar demographics and it is obvious to all that only Indians need apply for technical positions. Several times, I attempted to submit resumes of qualified candidates only to be told 'they wouldn't be a good fit' - and this was without interviewing or even looking at their resume beyond their names. I understand that even Indian US citizens were turned down for interviews when they mistakenly told Cisco representatives that they did not require sponsorship. I was given a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan), ironically enough, shortly before I had told several people that I was planning to leave the company soon as well as around the same time I sold a number of my stock options, a practice strongly discouraged by management as options become invalidated if an employee is terminated, saving the company large amounts of money. At my going away lunch, virtually the entire department, except for my manager who had also gotten rid of the earlier American DBAs, came to the lunch. I had very good relations with my Indian colleagues who could undoubtedly speak on my behalf as to my dedication, skills, and conscientiousness. When I was terminated, I was given a termination package but no reason was provided, despite my repeated requests. The best the PIP could do, was to say I did not answer my telephone by the third ring. The plan was followed but no matter what, I was told that it was not good enough. I was told that if I protested or considered legal action, my termination package would be revoked. If I was not planning to relocate, I would have pursued the company regardless as I was without doubt, discriminated against and very openly. Additionally, I was several years older than my manager as well as several years above the average of the generally younger group.

My wife is an IT consultant for the pharmaceutical industry, and everything outlined in these letters is happening in that workplace. Bringing Indian H1Bs into this country is the worst thing that could have happened to IT in America. The vast majority of these workers are uneducated and unqualified (and dishonest), and the problems in these industries are building daily as a result.
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
983 posts, read 1,553,789 times
Reputation: 845
Quote:
Originally Posted by KT13 View Post
Niche industries don't stay immune from outsourcing for long anymore. Without the right connections, it doesn't matter much what niche skills you develop, you won't be getting the job. Niche employment is 80% connections. Niche industries also demand less resources. But even in some exclusive fields like 'high-flying' finance and trading there influx of foreign workers have already started and well under way. Wherever there are still high salaries being paid to someone doing real work, the 'bosses' up top are already thinking of ways to put a hamper to that.
You're right. My point wasn't really about going to an industry filled with protectionism because there is no such thing. Niche industries tend to pay more due to the level of specialization required. Even the foreign workers are paid way more than their counterparts that are doing generic java development or QA.
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Old 11-04-2009, 02:07 PM
 
804 posts, read 1,883,185 times
Reputation: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by austinite45 View Post
1. There aren't enough Americans with science and engineering degrees to fill those jobs.
There are plenty of unemployed engineers and scientists. You just don't hear about it because many of them eventually give up or change careers. There is also a growing issue of age discrimination, especially in areas like Silicon Valley.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinite45 View Post
2. Many American graduates aren't as good and hard working as imported techies on H1B.
I have to call foul on this one. Some are, some are not, the same as with any crowd. I've worked in groups which were almost entirely H1/L1, and saw the same mix of frontrunners - or sloppy work and dysfunction - as one could spot in any crowd. The biggest difference I noticed was in management style. I'd also add that you'll never get 100% from employees that are constantly stressed over job security, that's a no-brainer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinite45 View Post
3. Forget immigration controls. Not only are technical/engineering jobs moving overseas, high tech R&D positions are also disappearing fast. Asia, particularly China, has been projected to displace America as the largest market for high tech R&D in as little as 10 years. In 15 years, many well educated American scientists and engineers will be applying for Chinese green card to work in China. In fact, Chinese leaders are already implementing various plans to attract leading Western scientists with high salaries and favorable work environment.
It's worth a chuckle because I've received two or three calls in the past regarding overseas jobs. Perhaps it's not a bad idea, the way things are going here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Read Culture of Critique View Post
On average, corporations save 66% over American workers by hiring cheap, indentured labor via the H-1b program. Anybody with an H-1B visa making 65k+ a year is doing a job that would pay an American six figures a year and not require 80 hour work weeks.
Gosh 65k a year does not sound bad at all! An 80 hour work week is not worth the health damage though.

If doing business here is so expensive, why don't these companies just pack up and ship the entire thing overseas? They no longer commit or contribute to this country or even pay taxes. Managerial salaries must be cheaper overseas too I've been told by some H1 holders, that 4 years of college in India costs about $5k. As long as housing, education, and healthcare in the US are so high, then the salaries needed to live here are also high.

Quote:
As one Indian worker said "We have to get our money before the Chinese do".
Then perhaps they should move to China.

Last edited by nomore07; 11-04-2009 at 02:33 PM..
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:52 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
14,318 posts, read 21,527,840 times
Reputation: 18436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swansen View Post
....I was about to get serious about schooling towards IT and i saw a post some one had made about this "H1B" thing. Looked around, ask a question, and wow what a mess. Long story short, these immigrant workers come here with low quality education, work extreme hours(apparently not always very productively ether) and for next to nothing, as far as industry standard goes. The mass of them have flooded the IT market and as soon as that is saturated they will move onto something else. While the IT field does have many without degrees, its not necessarily the majority, MANY qualified, certified, degree holding people are out of work because they can be filled with some one who will do their job for half or less...(in the big picture, like with millions upon millions of revenue, how does cutting 4-5 70k IT people help?? and replace them with some one making 20/30k???)

THIS ISN'T INCREASING COMPETITION ITS STIFLING IT. Why would some one in their right mind spend 40k on school to get a job they will earn 30k in for the next five to ten years at least??? Can anyone explain that to me?

Sooo, whats the solution? school costs come down to meet the needs of the people?? um, no.. not in a capitalistic market, prices will increase so only a smaller few can take said risk..

Honestly, what are we looking at here? if this continues, which it will, the middle class will continue to dwindle while a select few continue to make absorbent amounts of money until the whole system collapses under its own weight via there not being enough consumers left with the purchasing power to consume.. Yep.. i would say this i a great system indeed.

Simple solution? change the immigration laws and start protecting American workers, this isn't the 1900s, we are not the same nation we were 20 years ago, were not even the same as we were 10 years ago even. Yes, we WERE the great nation of opportunity for anyone to come here and make something, but that ship has sailed. When will we start caring about the people here and their future? Since when does the rest of the world come first? These policies literally kill Americans slowly and painfully so that the rich get richer.

Right, last three paragraphs are mildly related, but i didn't understand Global Labor Arbitrage until now... I was having problems understand how it will effect the white collar but now i see there is a way around everything...
Sucks, but I can't blame companies for seeking qualified, cheap labor. Their goal in this society of course is to maximize their profit. Why should they hire an american engineer for $100k/year, when they can get two visa engineers from india for $50K a piece? Or three for $30K each?

High-technology is a very dynamic field that is ever-changing. The field continually screams for new ideas. Get educated and make your place. You want to go into IT, focus on educating yourself in a manner that will allow you to continually grow as the field grows. A Masters degree in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, Computational Mathematics, Software Engineering, or some bio tech field will give you a great foundation. Find your passion and qualify yourself so you can take advantage of whatever opportunities you see from you higher vantage point.

The reality is that this society has more than ever become open to the international community, a community that is increasingly educated. Top talent will always be in demand in IT. Don't be scared off by indian and asian immigrants. There is something called "an American way" that immigrants can't emulate. The american free spirit, unrestrained nature, unmatched creativity fosters the Microsofts, the Apples, the Googles, the Oracles, the Ciscos of the world. Find your passion, then strive to be the best at it, you'll do fine.
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:09 AM
 
2,245 posts, read 4,044,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexus View Post
Sucks, but I can't blame companies for seeking qualified, cheap labor. Their goal in this society of course is to maximize their profit. Why should they hire an american engineer for $100k/year, when they can get two visa engineers from india for $50K a piece? Or three for $30K each?
Well hell, let's throw out any sort or moral compass and just resort to literally beating our competitors with baseball bats and taking their possessions whilst they lay on the ground bleeding to death. Or, if you're looking for something more white collar, how about getting into the secondary mortgage market, then afterward taking taxpayer money and giving your boards bonuses...
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:24 AM
eek
 
Location: Queens, NY
3,576 posts, read 7,410,645 times
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this thread raises valid points. thread of the year, IMHO. a lot of truth, although not PC, lies in this thread.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:56 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,809 times
Reputation: 10
[SIZE=2]WHY AMERICANS ARE JOBLESS!!!!!!

John Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6 a.m. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN PHILIPPINES) ...

He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN VIETNAM).

After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN CHINA), then he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN CHINA) to see how much he could spend today.

After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN CHINA), he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY), filled it with GAS (from Saudi Arabia) and continued his search for! a good paying AMERICAN JOB.

At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day checking his computer (MADE IN MALAYSIA), John decided to relax for a while.

He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN KOREA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA .



That's why businesses are looking for cheap labor and reduce overheads. They have to compete with us (American's), who support foreign industry. That's why they look for H1Bs and not us. Go and ask the store manager "Where do you guys keep made in USA material". He will simply say we don't. So the reason is natural.

We are driving the salary market low, not those H1Bs. Businesses need to make profit.
[/SIZE]
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:12 PM
 
583 posts, read 1,217,283 times
Reputation: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankliege View Post
[SIZE=2]WHY AMERICANS ARE JOBLESS!!!!!!

John Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6 a.m. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN PHILIPPINES) ...

He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN VIETNAM).

After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN CHINA), then he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN CHINA) to see how much he could spend today.

After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN CHINA), he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY), filled it with GAS (from Saudi Arabia) and continued his search for! a good paying AMERICAN JOB.

At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day checking his computer (MADE IN MALAYSIA), John decided to relax for a while.

He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN KOREA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA .



That's why businesses are looking for cheap labor and reduce overheads. They have to compete with us (American's), who support foreign industry. That's why they look for H1Bs and not us. Go and ask the store manager "Where do you guys keep made in USA material". He will simply say we don't. So the reason is natural.

We are driving the salary market low, not those H1Bs. Businesses need to make profit.
[/SIZE]

You are missing one important thing here. A lot of these goods you mention (especially clothing) are produced by slave labor in conditions that would be a violation of human rights and would never be allowed in any developed country (USA including) or even a developing one. Developing countries in Asia, the middle east and South America also employ guest workers from very poor neighboring countries because they can be treated the way citizens of their own countries wouldn't stand for.

So, you are not talking here about competition with the emerging middle class and upper middle class of foreign workers (e.g. those working white collar jobs on H1B visas in the US, UK, and other developed countries). You are talking about the industries that have digressed into the state of using what essentially could be classified as slave labor, you are competing with those poorest of the poorest of the world.

These trends are very disturbing and it is unfortunate that as a world we are now relying on slave labor to produce a lot of our essential goods and thus moving towards the society of the ages past, undermining the entire model of the developed society with the strong middle class and high quality of life for all citizens. As long as there is poverty and inequality in the world, this will happen, we may think that living in the US in a developed country we are immune from these problems of poor countries, but it affects us greatly with the the massive outflow of jobs now covering pretty much most sectors and industries. Not only foreign workers are desirable because they require less wages, they also can be treated in a way that native workers wouldn't stand for. There is virtually no competition here. Until the wealth distribution around the world evens out this problem won't go away.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:25 PM
 
511 posts, read 2,145,540 times
Reputation: 752
I get frustrated with the forigne workers who come here and take American jobs. Several businesses in our town hire workers from other contries here on work visas every year. While they seem to be nice people, they often can't speak very good english. This is akward and frustrating when they are put to work dealing with the public, example, working the front counter at McD's. It's annoying to have to repeat myself again and again, only to have to bring the oder back because it's still wrong, and at the same time feel bad for the person because they are struggling to understand what I'm saying. Another example, I had a part time job cleaning at a local hotel. The visa workers sucked all the hours away from people who had been working there for 5, 10, 15 years. On top of that, because of their poor english, they often did their jobs VERY poorly. In today's economy, where so many American's have lost their jobs and are fighting to put food on their tables, there is just no room for these visa workers.
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