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Old 10-13-2009, 05:36 PM
 
197 posts, read 377,080 times
Reputation: 149

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....I was about to get serious about schooling towards IT and i saw a post some one had made about this "H1B" thing. Looked around, ask a question, and wow what a mess. Long story short, these immigrant workers come here with low quality education, work extreme hours(apparently not always very productively ether) and for next to nothing, as far as industry standard goes. The mass of them have flooded the IT market and as soon as that is saturated they will move onto something else. While the IT field does have many without degrees, its not necessarily the majority, MANY qualified, certified, degree holding people are out of work because they can be filled with some one who will do their job for half or less...(in the big picture, like with millions upon millions of revenue, how does cutting 4-5 70k IT people help?? and replace them with some one making 20/30k???)

THIS ISN'T INCREASING COMPETITION ITS STIFLING IT. Why would some one in their right mind spend 40k on school to get a job they will earn 30k in for the next five to ten years at least??? Can anyone explain that to me?

Sooo, whats the solution? school costs come down to meet the needs of the people?? um, no.. not in a capitalistic market, prices will increase so only a smaller few can take said risk..

Honestly, what are we looking at here? if this continues, which it will, the middle class will continue to dwindle while a select few continue to make absorbent amounts of money until the whole system collapses under its own weight via there not being enough consumers left with the purchasing power to consume.. Yep.. i would say this i a great system indeed.

Simple solution? change the immigration laws and start protecting American workers, this isn't the 1900s, we are not the same nation we were 20 years ago, were not even the same as we were 10 years ago even. Yes, we WERE the great nation of opportunity for anyone to come here and make something, but that ship has sailed. When will we start caring about the people here and their future? Since when does the rest of the world come first? These policies literally kill Americans slowly and painfully so that the rich get richer.

Right, last three paragraphs are mildly related, but i didn't understand Global Labor Arbitrage until now... I was having problems understand how it will effect the white collar but now i see there is a way around everything...
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Old 10-13-2009, 05:42 PM
 
Location: DFW
40,920 posts, read 48,822,759 times
Reputation: 54900
I live in an area that has a very large Indian (Asian) population and they have all come here following the IT jobs. Most are contract workers.

A client told me he can't hire US kids out of college anymore because they want $40-50k a year to start. He can get the imported labor for half that amount with little benefits.

Didn't seem right to me.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Houston
441 posts, read 1,321,877 times
Reputation: 468
There is 30k H1B quota per year, H1B quota is not filled this year yet. Not all goes to IT. Many goes to oil, space, engineering industry etc, who do you think setup production of BMW, Siemens and similar here? Most of H1B's work for 65k+ salary which is REQUIRED and REVIEWED every year by Department of homeland security. Let assume 15k IT workers per year. From 305 million population that's how much 0.005%? Yes, that's definitely ruining your country. For sure.

Just admit you don't like Indians.


If you don't like that company owners don't like to pay 50k to the new graduates, why don't you create your own company and employ just American college kids for 100k? Why the right of college graduate for 50k salary should be above the right of company owners to be rich? Isn't it what free market and capitalism = US is about? Hypocrite much?

Last edited by meet4; 10-13-2009 at 06:44 PM..
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:38 PM
 
434 posts, read 1,075,798 times
Reputation: 155
1. There aren't enough Americans with science and engineering degrees to fill those jobs.

2. Many American graduates aren't as good and hard working as imported techies on H1B.

3. Forget immigration controls. Not only are technical/engineering jobs moving overseas, high tech R&D positions are also disappearing fast. Asia, particularly China, has been projected to displace America as the largest market for high tech R&D in as little as 10 years. In 15 years, many well educated American scientists and engineers will be applying for Chinese green card to work in China. In fact, Chinese leaders are already implementing various plans to attract leading Western scientists with high salaries and favorable work environment. Cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Hong Kong are set to outclass New York, Chicago, Paris, Frankfurt and London in 10-15 years.

See for yourself how Shanghai is developing. Chinese leaders have vowed to make Shanghai the financial capital of the world by 2025.

*Shanghai* 上海 - SkyscraperCity

more recent photos:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...193251&page=25

Last edited by austinite45; 10-13-2009 at 07:36 PM..
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:51 PM
 
434 posts, read 1,075,798 times
Reputation: 155
See how the capital city is developing. the CBD area is almost as ambitious as that of Shanghai.

*Beijing* 北京 - SkyscraperCity
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:54 AM
 
2,245 posts, read 4,213,700 times
Reputation: 2152
Quote:
Originally Posted by meet4 View Post
There is 30k H1B quota per year, H1B quota is not filled this year yet. Not all goes to IT. Many goes to oil, space, engineering industry etc, who do you think setup production of BMW, Siemens and similar here? Most of H1B's work for 65k+ salary which is REQUIRED and REVIEWED every year by Department of homeland security. Let assume 15k IT workers per year. From 305 million population that's how much 0.005%? Yes, that's definitely ruining your country. For sure.

Just admit you don't like Indians.


If you don't like that company owners don't like to pay 50k to the new graduates, why don't you create your own company and employ just American college kids for 100k? Why the right of college graduate for 50k salary should be above the right of company owners to be rich? Isn't it what free market and capitalism = US is about? Hypocrite much?
I am a Computer Scientist, and am very familiar with the H-1B sham system for expunging from the workforce, perfectly qualified Americans for low cost labor imported from Third World countries.

There is no "salary review" from the Department of Homeland Security.

On average, corporations save 66% over American workers by hiring cheap, indentured labor via the H-1b program. Anybody with an H-1B visa making 65k+ a year is doing a job that would pay an American six figures a year and not require 80 hour work weeks.

As far as starting a SW company, the OP stated they were interested in IT, not running a business.
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:58 AM
 
2,245 posts, read 4,213,700 times
Reputation: 2152
Quote:
Originally Posted by austinite45 View Post
1. There aren't enough Americans with science and engineering degrees to fill those jobs.

2. Many American graduates aren't as good and hard working as imported techies on H1B.

3. Forget immigration controls. Not only are technical/engineering jobs moving overseas, high tech R&D positions are also disappearing fast. Asia, particularly China, has been projected to displace America as the largest market for high tech R&D in as little as 10 years. In 15 years, many well educated American scientists and engineers will be applying for Chinese green card to work in China. In fact, Chinese leaders are already implementing various plans to attract leading Western scientists with high salaries and favorable work environment. Cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Hong Kong are set to outclass New York, Chicago, Paris, Frankfurt and London in 10-15 years.

See for yourself how Shanghai is developing. Chinese leaders have vowed to make Shanghai the financial capital of the world by 2025.

*Shanghai* 上海 - SkyscraperCity

more recent photos:

*Shanghai* 上海 - Page 25 - SkyscraperCity
1. That was incorrect in the past, but is self-fulfilling as there is no reason for American to major in certain sciences due to globalization. However, if the H-1B system ended, more students would pursue majors in fields such as Computer Science. We call this phenomenon capitalism.

2. False. BTW, where do you think Indians get the math and science they use?

3. I agree for the most part.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:11 AM
 
14,300 posts, read 14,088,313 times
Reputation: 45408
I oppose illegal immigration, but this is not illegal. I think its in America's interest to attract highly skilled foreigners with training in computer science, engineering and mathematics. The salary issue may be a legitimate concern. However, I don't know what to say. All of us face foreign competition in some form or another. The auto industry faces it from imports. All of our major industries have to deal with the effects of foreigners competing and making better products. It keeps prices low in the USA.

Some other realities:

1. America has trouble graduating enough engineers, computer science majors, and mathematics majors from our four year colleges. I think we need to take a look at why we can't graduate more people from these programs. Something is wrong if they can't attract enough people, educate them properly, and get them into the work force.

2. Highly skilled foreigners allow our businesses to compete abroad much more effectively.

3. If these foreigners create wealth through the application of their talents, its more wealth to be distributed among all levels of American society.

4. If we don't let these people in, they'll go to Canada, China, Australia, or Europe. These countries may leave us behind and become the IT centers of tomorrow.

Sorry, I think we need these people. My objection is to doing nothing while 13 million unskilled laborers from south of our border illegally just walk into this country. That's the immigration I want to stop, or at least slow down.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,521,434 times
Reputation: 24856
Markg91359 and others - In response. Long post.

1. Many people see a college education as an advanced trade school and do not take up science and engineering but go into "management" where the dream up those import slave labor schemes. The people that do take up these intellectual "trades" spend a huge amount of borrowed money for their education and require a substantial 50 to 70k salary just to pay off their debts and have some surplus for saving when they start working.

The equivalent import has been educated in a state supported school in a country with a far lower cost of living and can be imported as indentured or nearly slave labor and work for far less as he has much less debt and refusing exorbitant hours can result in deportation. So the company has both a cheaper employee and a death grip on the employee’s future that they use to extort illegal hours.

2. Our high tech is effectively unable to compete abroad because of foreign "buy local" taxes and cultural custom. They also make out by having their exported labor send home huge amounts of capital to support their families.

3. The wealth created by these indentured servants is distributed to the corporate executives and, reluctantly, to the share holders. A small amount goes back home to mama and papa so the brothers and sisters can be sent abroad to earn money for daddy. The middle and lower levels of American society in no way benefit from this scam because cost savings resulting from the cheap imported labor are not reflected in the prices.

4. Most other developed countries are not similarly dominated by their very upper business and investor classes, the prime beneficiaries of this scam, to allow their domestic IT industries to be robbed of the domestically trained and employed talent by low cost imports. They are not as dominated as we have become.

I would propose the following as a partial cure to the dilution of our technically sophisticated and educated workforce.

1. Government support of education in the sciences, including medical, and engineering by direct grants for educational costs, low interest loans for living costs and forgiveness of the loans if the person remains in a scientific or engineering field for some predetermined time. One effect would be the new employees would not require 70 k salaries just to pay their debts. These subsidies would not apply to other forms of college level “trade” schools.

2. We must install countervailing tariffs to level the import playing field to eliminate the price difference (wages) of imported talent as opposed to domestic talent. When other countries lower or remove their import restrictions we will do likewise.

3. We need to institute a truly progressive income tax with a base deductable equal to 85% of the income distribution to have the greatest beneficiaries of government to pay their proper share. This would also slow the formation of a self serving class that concentrates on expanding their wealth and power to sustain their dominance.

4. We must restore control of our polity and economy to the people that create the profits for the few that retain the wealth.

5. Above all we must realize that our system is not a competitive form of capitalism but a deliberately manipulated form that creates and sequesters wealth for the economic elite. It is much more like 17th century Britain and Dutch Empires or mid 20th century Germany with their aristocracy or selected crony capitalists than any form of “free” market. This, above all, must be changed.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:29 AM
 
Location: FIN
888 posts, read 1,584,313 times
Reputation: 811
Quote:
Originally Posted by Read Culture of Critique View Post
On average, corporations save 66% over American workers by hiring cheap, indentured labor via the H-1b program. Anybody with an H-1B visa making 65k+ a year is doing a job that would pay an American six figures a year and not require 80 hour work weeks.
It raises a question.. if this really is the case, then is the American really worth the six figures for that job?
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