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Old 10-27-2009, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,757 posts, read 39,329,978 times
Reputation: 28903

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrackly View Post
I think threads like this are either ignorant or in denial of the fact that our society is rapidly changing to an economy with a perpetual unemployed class. Even before the big Crash industries were dying and laying off due to advances in technology, out-sourcing , and the trivialization of labor wages. The future America might very well have to live with a 32 hour work week just to keep more of America employed and self-supporting.

Bear with me. For purposes of keeping the arithmetic easy, let's say all jobs pay an average of $10 an hour. 100-million workers at 32 hours would produce 3.2-billion hours of labor making 32-billion a week, all of which goes into the economy to prove for the needs and wishes of the American people.

What if 80-million workers worked 40 hours? The same 3.2 billion hours of labor, the same 32 billion earned a week, still enough to support all families. What's the difference? There would be 20 million people free to stay at home with their kids, further their education, learn to paint or write or arrange flowers of speak Chinese, build a house, travel abroad, bargain-shop, volunteer, whatever dignified people would do with their time if they were not called lazy bums and leeches and forced to raise their children in poverty as punishment for not having a job.

You say "Everybody would refuse to work"? Simple solution. Structure it so the people who work get more than those who don't. Most people will want to. Many who won't are the kind of disruptive, indolent, inefficient workers who just drag down productivity--- people that you don't want on the jobsite, anyway.
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Old 10-29-2009, 02:39 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 5,771,019 times
Reputation: 9220
I realize that many people simply have no idea how very funny they appear - especially the ones who are posting on here whining about how "poor" they are having to live on unemployment, and how they have to decide whether to eat or feed their children. You are paying for internet access, own a computer, and you are wasting time on a public forum whining about how poor you are? You don't know what "poor" is. Or apparently what "looking for a job" means, either. When you have to give up everything but the basics - and I'm talking about your SUV and your meat, too, as well as your Blackberries and cel phones and widescreen TVs and Nintendos and Wiis - come back and talk to me about "poor" and how everyone else should pay for everything you want and think that you deserve.

Had you bothered to read my initial posts, you would see I am not one of the fat cat rich peepuls you resent for not handing you what you deserve - I worked my ***** off for 35 years to get where I am, I underbought and undersubsisted, you could have done and still could do the same. Many of you remind me of the woman who bought the biggest flat screen at Best Buy, and was trying to load it into her Escalade - when it wouldn't fit and started to rain, she began blaming and raving at the two salespeople who were trying to help her load it. You bit off more than you can chew, you found out that life doesn't work out the way you were told it would, and now it's someone else's fault. Too funny. Go ahead, rant and rave at me all you want - like "Beetlejuice" said, "It just keeps getting funnier!"

Jtur88, your discussion is reasonable on its face, but unfortunately only theoretical. "Jobs" are not some ephemeral thing provided for the comfort and solace of the public, but are created through innovation and the law of supply and demand. Having anyone or any set or subset of a group to be guaranteed a job is a great theory - but doesn't work in the real world of economics. OK, I take that back - it works for as long as a government can pretend to its people that it works, for as long as a government can subsidize it, and for as long as the populace is gullible enough to believe it. Russia tried it till the wall collapsed, and China tried it until they realized that aggressive profiteering was the only thing that will save their billions of people. We have been trying it, off and on in false fits and starts, from FDR's "New Deal" right through the dot.com and real estate false booms and very real busts, right up to the bailouts and 'green job' creations that are being hyped as the next wave of innovation. The hard truth is that jobs are created and growth is continued by innovation, effort, sales, and a real viable product. The dependence on fantasy, or on government subsidy, or on government 's hopeful promises of safety and security to the gullible masses, can only eventually reproduce the same economic poverty of Russia and China. And anyone who is of voting age is responsible for falling for such promises - or refusing to.

The bottom line is that no matter how many extensions those on unemployment get, sooner or later the fiscal bottom will be reached, and only those who have planned for it and prepared for it will survive when our own Berlin Wall of self-deceit and government piracy and profiteering falls. When it finally strikes home to most that there are no more jobs to be had, that innovation and job creation is stifled, that there are no more government subsidies to be handed out, then and only then will most realize that they have been had, and right royally, too. North Dakota has figured it out - they built their "illegal" oil refinery and told Congress to go jump in a lake, they are eliminating taxes and are proudly profiting off something the FedGov told them could not, should not, and would never happen - and just like Alaska, their people are benefiting from it, not losing money to a Washington bureaucracy. Congress threatened to cut off their Federal monies, and ND said, that's OK - we can make much more without jumping through your hoops for them, you keep them. Until and unless the States and individuals wake up and stop depending on gummint for their succor, they will sink into a very real and lasting poverty. This is the final test, I hope you've all studied.
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:37 AM
 
4,575 posts, read 3,751,163 times
Reputation: 12575
I realize that many people simply have no idea how very funny they appear - especially the ones who are posting on here whining about how "poor" they are having to live on unemployment, and how they have to decide whether to eat or feed their children. You are paying for internet access, own a computer, and you are wasting time on a public forum whining about how poor you are? You don't know what "poor" is. Or apparently what "looking for a job" means, either. When you have to give up everything but the basics - and I'm talking about your SUV and your meat, too, as well as your Blackberries and cel phones and widescreen TVs and Nintendos and Wiis - come back and talk to me about "poor" and how everyone else should pay for everything you want and think that you deserve.

Had you bothered to read my initial posts, you would see I am not one of the fat cat rich peepuls you resent for not handing you what you deserve - I worked my ***** off for 35 years to get where I am, I underbought and undersubsisted, you could have done and still could do the same. Many of you remind me of the woman who bought the biggest flat screen at Best Buy, and was trying to load it into her Escalade - when it wouldn't fit and started to rain, she began blaming and raving at the two salespeople who were trying to help her load it. You bit off more than you can chew, you found out that life doesn't work out the way you were told it would, and now it's someone else's fault. Too funny. Go ahead, rant and rave at me all you want - like "Beetlejuice" said, "It just keeps getting funnier!"

.................................................. .................................................

Ok, here are a few realities that you simply don't seem to get.

1. If there are 100 people looking for a job in an economy in which 75 jobs are available, than 25 people aren't going to get jobs. What do you propose doing with the 25? The county poor farm or selling pencils on the street? Will you at least acknowledge that there maybe times when the number of workers outnumber all the jobs currently available? Some very highly talented people right now can't find work. My wife works in an organization where 23 qualified people have applied for a health educator position. Only one will get the job, but all must be interviewed.

2. Economies fluctuate based on the "business cycle". The nature of a capitalist economy is two steps forward and than one step back. The business cycle occurred long before "guvmint" as you put it got involved. We've had recessions in this country that can be measured since 1800. In fact, there were more business cycles during the 1800's before any government intervention took place in the economy. So, I would say government intervention in the economy has reduced both the number and severity of business cycles. Herbert Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Richard Nixon and George W. Bush have all endorsed government intervention as a means to deal with business cycles.

3. Unemployment benefits are a "buffer" they act to shield both the individual employee and others in the community from the effects of the business cycle. The store owner, the gasoline station operator, the bank, the post office, etc. all benefit when the unemployed have some money to spend.

4. No one of your school of thought complained once when George W. Bush dealt with a more limited recession in 2001 by cutting taxes. Most of these benefits went to the 10% wealthiest people in America. I guess its only when an economic stimulus program helps out the poor and unemployed that its wrong huh? Where were the tea parties back than? The budget deficit under GWB was pretty darn high in 01'? For that matter, where were you and your kind when we started that nonsensical war in Iraq that's cost this country $1 trillion?

5. Some of us here have worked our whole lives too. I'm proud of what I've accomplished. It doesn't mean everyone got the same breaks we did though. Be able to go to college was my big break. Life isn't fair and we aren't to blame for that. Yet, it doesn't relieve us of our obligation to try to make things better for others when we can.

Honestly, if you were at least consistent maybe people here wouldn't think you are such a hopeless case.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,757 posts, read 39,329,978 times
Reputation: 28903
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
I realize that many people simply have no idea how very funny they appear - especially the ones who are posting on here whining about how "poor" they are having to live on unemployment, and how they have to decide whether to eat or feed their children. You are paying for internet access, own a computer, and you are wasting time on a public forum whining about how poor you are?
Aha. I have seen very few (if any) poor people here "whining" about their own circumstances. Here, in extreme brevity, is the difference between Liberals and Conservatives.,

Liberals whine on behalf of those who can't. Conservatives whine on behalf of themselves.
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Old 10-29-2009, 02:37 PM
 
Location: New Kensington (Parnassus) ,Pa
2,424 posts, read 901,786 times
Reputation: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
I realize that many people simply have no idea how very funny they appear - especially the ones who are posting on here whining about how "poor" they are having to live on unemployment, and how they have to decide whether to eat or feed their children. You are paying for internet access, own a computer, and you are wasting time on a public forum whining about how poor you are? You don't know what "poor" is. Or apparently what "looking for a job" means, either. When you have to give up everything but the basics - and I'm talking about your SUV and your meat, too, as well as your Blackberries and cel phones and widescreen TVs and Nintendos and Wiis - come back and talk to me about "poor" and how everyone else should pay for everything you want and think that you deserve.

Had you bothered to read my initial posts, you would see I am not one of the fat cat rich peepuls you resent for not handing you what you deserve - I worked my ***** off for 35 years to get where I am, I underbought and undersubsisted, you could have done and still could do the same. Many of you remind me of the woman who bought the biggest flat screen at Best Buy, and was trying to load it into her Escalade - when it wouldn't fit and started to rain, she began blaming and raving at the two salespeople who were trying to help her load it. You bit off more than you can chew, you found out that life doesn't work out the way you were told it would, and now it's someone else's fault. Too funny. Go ahead, rant and rave at me all you want - like "Beetlejuice" said, "It just keeps getting funnier!"

Jtur88, your discussion is reasonable on its face, but unfortunately only theoretical. "Jobs" are not some ephemeral thing provided for the comfort and solace of the public, but are created through innovation and the law of supply and demand. Having anyone or any set or subset of a group to be guaranteed a job is a great theory - but doesn't work in the real world of economics. OK, I take that back - it works for as long as a government can pretend to its people that it works, for as long as a government can subsidize it, and for as long as the populace is gullible enough to believe it. Russia tried it till the wall collapsed, and China tried it until they realized that aggressive profiteering was the only thing that will save their billions of people. We have been trying it, off and on in false fits and starts, from FDR's "New Deal" right through the dot.com and real estate false booms and very real busts, right up to the bailouts and 'green job' creations that are being hyped as the next wave of innovation. The hard truth is that jobs are created and growth is continued by innovation, effort, sales, and a real viable product. The dependence on fantasy, or on government subsidy, or on government 's hopeful promises of safety and security to the gullible masses, can only eventually reproduce the same economic poverty of Russia and China. And anyone who is of voting age is responsible for falling for such promises - or refusing to.

The bottom line is that no matter how many extensions those on unemployment get, sooner or later the fiscal bottom will be reached, and only those who have planned for it and prepared for it will survive when our own Berlin Wall of self-deceit and government piracy and profiteering falls. When it finally strikes home to most that there are no more jobs to be had, that innovation and job creation is stifled, that there are no more government subsidies to be handed out, then and only then will most realize that they have been had, and right royally, too. North Dakota has figured it out - they built their "illegal" oil refinery and told Congress to go jump in a lake, they are eliminating taxes and are proudly profiting off something the FedGov told them could not, should not, and would never happen - and just like Alaska, their people are benefiting from it, not losing money to a Washington bureaucracy. Congress threatened to cut off their Federal monies, and ND said, that's OK - we can make much more without jumping through your hoops for them, you keep them. Until and unless the States and individuals wake up and stop depending on gummint for their succor, they will sink into a very real and lasting poverty. This is the final test, I hope you've all studied.
You don't realize how pompous you come across to everyone here. "Let them eat cake".
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Old 10-29-2009, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Middle Earth
491 posts, read 444,251 times
Reputation: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainy Intellectual Type View Post
I am getting frustrated with the long term unemployed just sitting at home, sending a few resumes out a day for jobs they must know they are not going to be called for, and complaining. Just get a job, any job, even if it involves two minimum wage positions.

I know many people who have been collecting $450 a week in unemployment insurance for over 60 weeks. The first 26 weeks were traditional unemployment paid through a tax on employers. When they still did not have a job they went on state and federal extensions that last as long as 72 weeks. Now they are coming close to running out of these benefits and are pushing their member of Congress to give another 14 week extension.

If that extension is passed, what happens to them in 14 weeks? Why would we expect these people to be any closer to getting a job in 14 more weeks than today after 72 weeks of unemployment?

When do we say enough and force to people to depend on family and friends or work at McDonalds or Walmart?

Please, lets debate when we should cut off long term federal benefits for the long term unemployed.
Why do you care so much what other people are doing? Maybe they have applied to Mcdonalds and Walmart but have not gotten jobs. Seems to me you have something up your butt.
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Old 10-31-2009, 08:20 AM
 
Location: New Kensington (Parnassus) ,Pa
2,424 posts, read 901,786 times
Reputation: 603
OK, where did SC Granny go?
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Old 10-31-2009, 09:14 PM
 
4,575 posts, read 3,751,163 times
Reputation: 12575
OK, where did SC Granny go?

.................................................. .................................................. ..

Can't speak for her, but I will make a general observation about conservatives. When their "take responsibility and blame individuals for everything that goes wrong" philosophy is shown to be either false or too simplistic, they tend to run. Of course, there are liberals and moderates like this too who are not very thoughtful.

Conservatives tend to see things in "black and white" and think in terms of universal truisms, rather than seeing topics that needed to be debated and discussed before one can draw the best conclusion. I think its actually painful for many of them when their "truisms" are questioned. Its hard to debate with many of them because "they have all the truth" already. That's why many of them just disappear rather than engage in a discussion.
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,757 posts, read 39,329,978 times
Reputation: 28903
And some of them just take the weekend off to spend it with their family, instead of with us jerks. Why don't you wait until she comes back, before putting words in her mouth.
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Old 11-02-2009, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Middle Earth
491 posts, read 444,251 times
Reputation: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by aveojohn View Post
OK, where did SC Granny go?
To go to another message borad and look down on umemployed people I am sure. Whatever she has to do to make her feel better about herself.
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