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Old 11-13-2009, 01:14 PM
 
Location: New Kensington (Parnassus) ,Pa
2,424 posts, read 1,813,267 times
Reputation: 603

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I have talked to several veteran police officers about this, in fact. Convicted murderers, provided that was the only major item on their criminal record, are seen as model citizens, and often volunteer to work with the police investigative units to help unravel the mentality of perpetrators of homicides. Typically, a person who commits a single murder in his lifetime carries a high degree of contrition and remorse, and committed the crime only because of an escalation of circumstances in a life that would have otherwise been exemplary. As such, the convicted murderer is inclined to compensate for his deeds by being the best possible "neighbor".

Any convicted murderer that does nor fall into the above description is very unlikely to be in the general population where he can move into the house next to mine.
It's actually really weird that murderers have the lowest recidivism rate.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Kansas
3,855 posts, read 11,463,484 times
Reputation: 1706
A friend of mine and I were discussing this same issue last weekend. Being an advocate for right to carry he put it like this:

(this isn't an exact quote but it went something like this)
Quote:
Making it illegal to carry a handgun basically takes guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens while criminals will continue to carry and use hand guns. Law abiding citizens...by definition...obey the law. If the law says that they cannot carry....then they will not carry. Criminals however do not care about law and will continue to carry and use handguns to commit crimes.



Training and owning a permit is probably not a bad thing. If you are going to own a gun you shouldn't be a liability by not actually understanding how to use it. Registering a gun and having a permit is not necessarily a bad thing because it can help catch criminals. Say if a crime was committed and a gun is found that is suspected as being the murder weapon it makes it easier to track down where the gun came from....and could lead the police to the murderer.

Cost of training and a permit should be absorbed by the owner...at a reasonable cost! The same guy I was talking about earlier just bought a gun for himself and his wife for concealed carry....for $850. Now...if a permit costs $50.....that's actually a realatively small price to pay wrt the cost of a gun! If you can afford a gun odds are you can afford a permit and training.
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:32 PM
 
Location: SoCal - Sherman Oaks & Woodland Hills
12,977 posts, read 28,809,137 times
Reputation: 10491
I am a strong advocate of concealed carry. But I am also a strong advocate of who should be allowed to carry that could keep the guns out of the hands of some of those who share my concealed carry views but also will allow for those who need to carry for safety and for those who do not have hundreds or thousands of extra income to pay.

1. Person cannot have a criminal record. No felonies, no violent arrests, no assault charges.
2. Person must pass credit check as part of the background investigation process similar to employment.
3. Person must NOT be member or affiliated with any known or unknown criminal/terrorist/hate group or organization - street gangs, motorcycle gangs, Aryan nation/kkk, etc.
4. Person must be willing to pay annual licensing fee ($100-$200) and attend hands on training course.
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:50 PM
 
Location: New Kensington (Parnassus) ,Pa
2,424 posts, read 1,813,267 times
Reputation: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoTzuMindFu View Post
I am a strong advocate of concealed carry. But I am also a strong advocate of who should be allowed to carry that could keep the guns out of the hands of some of those who share my concealed carry views but also will allow for those who need to carry for safety and for those who do not have hundreds or thousands of extra income to pay.

1. Person cannot have a criminal record. No felonies, no violent arrests, no assault charges.
2. Person must pass credit check as part of the background investigation process similar to employment.
3. Person must NOT be member or affiliated with any known or unknown criminal/terrorist/hate group or organization - street gangs, motorcycle gangs, Aryan nation/kkk, etc.
4. Person must be willing to pay annual licensing fee ($100-$200) and attend hands on training course.
What does a credit check have to do with anything and how do you prove they are a member of an outlaw gang?
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Central, IL
3,408 posts, read 3,460,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aveojohn View Post
What does a credit check have to do with anything and how do you prove they are a member of an outlaw gang?
Well, some gang members are on the National Gang Hit List, which has been merged with the National Threat Security Group List. But even at that, most gang members are not on that list, and also, many that are no longer in gangs, are still listed on it.
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:07 PM
 
Location: New Kensington (Parnassus) ,Pa
2,424 posts, read 1,813,267 times
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Thats what the background check is for.
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:15 PM
 
Location: SoCal - Sherman Oaks & Woodland Hills
12,977 posts, read 28,809,137 times
Reputation: 10491
Quote:
Originally Posted by aveojohn View Post
What does a credit check have to do with anything and how do you prove they are a member of an outlaw gang?
Well thats just something that needs to be figured out now isnt it?

Are you okay with those types have concealed carry permits?

Almost all employers now have credit checks as part of the background investigation process for potential new hires. Paying back your creditors shows character and we wouldnt want to have questionable characters walking around our cities and towns with Glocks under their jackets now do we?

As far as gang/criminal/hate group type folks they are prohibited from serving in our nation's military. Sure a few idiots may make it through, but what form(s) of controls are being used to screen those guys out? I dont know. Checking for certain tattoos? Checking online posting history and activity? These are at least a start.
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Lenoir/Morganton, NC
148 posts, read 522,514 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by aveojohn View Post
What does a credit check have to do with anything and how do you prove they are a member of an outlaw gang?
It's just like his proposed annual fee, and the gun laws that specifically target "saturday night specials" back in the day. A lot of elitists believe that poor people shouldn't have the right to defend themselves. I bet he'd also like to exclude those living in public housing & trailer parks as well.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:04 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,321,196 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by John McKay View Post
Would you want to put a gun back into someone's hands if they were a convicted felon that has done pervious crimes with the use of a firearm??
Simple answer =NO!!!

Why would you release them if theres any doubt about their rehabilitation?

In answer to the OP I think its plain that infringement of individuals "keeping & bearing" (owning & carrying) is illegal and unconstitutional.

I realize that most people seem to think that this is an outdated amendment, but the truth is that allowing laws to stand & be enforced that directly conflict with the constitution and violate a civil right endanger the entire bill of rights. After all, if its ok to ignore the second for compelling reasons why not the first? Why not any of them since any freedom can be abused & used to inflict injury on people or society.

The moral & upstanding thing to do regarding guns & gun ownership would be to repeal or amend the second amendment.

that said its foolhardy to ignore law & carry without a permit where it is required. Sadly, even though preconditions and prior restraints on a constitutional right are, well, unconstitutional you will find most police happy to arrest you, most prosecutors happy to prosecute, most juries willing to convict & most judges willing to sentence you just like a real criminal.

Someday maybe we will see such civil servants on trial and incarcerated for violating peoples civil rights but until then I will obey the law & keep my permit current.

On another note current federal law states that ALL able bodied men between 18 & 45 are members of the militia. So its pretty much illegal on a federal level NOT to own firearms suitable for militia service. To me that would mean a handgun & rifle. Since in most places you need a permit to carry or even buy a pistol it follows that it may be a federal crime to not maintain a pistol permit.

Gets confusing when theres laws mandateing something and other laws preventing you from doing what the others require. Course today you will never get arrested for not being prepared to fulfill your duty to the nation, responsability isn't important today, not as important as pretending anyway.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:12 PM
 
Location: SoCal - Sherman Oaks & Woodland Hills
12,977 posts, read 28,809,137 times
Reputation: 10491
Quote:
Originally Posted by John McKay View Post
Would you want to put a gun back into someone's hands if they were a convicted felon that has done pervious crimes with the use of a firearm??
Simple answer =NO!!!
I completely agree. Jail/prison is a punishment for their crimes, it is NOT a house of rehabilitation. Convicted felons no longer can use/have/possess firearms. This is the way it IS and the way it should ALWAYS be.
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