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Here's where I disagree with the Virtus program preventing child abuse. First off, the training was formed by the Risk Management sector of the Catholic church. What this means in layman's terms is that the church is getting pelted left and right with sexual harassment suits from victims and their families. Because they are now hugely in debt due to having to pay settlements, guess what - they are pushing the accountability of the various transgressions committed by priests onto lay people of the church (teachers, parents, etc.).
I went to a Virtus training this year; NOT ONCE was the sexual abuse by the priests mentioned. Instead, the whole focus was on various pedophiles in the community and how to keep your children safe from them. Well, duh - thank you for stating the obvious.
Furthermore, seems to me that the Virtus training seemed to focus on parents being paranoid about each other as well as teachers. Good save, Catholic church - stick it where the sun doesn't shine (Catholic church). Yes, we all want to keep our children safe; too bad the Catholic church didn't buy into their own mantra. If they did, the pedophile priests would have been let go and furthermore prosecuted as the criminals/pedophiles that they are. Instead, they got transferred to new parishes where a new batch of victims awaited them. I will NOT forget what they did to innocent children and their families and neither should anyone else. The Virtus Training is nothing but a diversion. It's another way to push the accountability that the church should be taking onto other people. That's their usual MO, so why should I be surprised.
I agree with you on most, but it did make me aware to keep my eyes open.
The Catholic Church is certainly one of the oldest and most succsessful criminal enterprises, it has been disected and examined by some of it's former members and others who have done their research quite well, their conclusions support the OP's contention.
Any posting that presents religion as a questionable practice is bound to generate a lot of friction. The huge gap that exists between the leadership of a church and it's members is cause for a lot of misunderstanding, Catholic laymen have done a great deal of good for people around the world, they have established themselves as good and well intentioned people. I would venture a guess that the OP's assertions could be stretched out to include almost any large church, organizations seem to lean toward corruption, and the larger the organization the greater the tendency to do so.
I have to laugh at the flaming posters who can get themselves so angry over an internet forum, this is supposed to be a place where ideas can be shared, convictions tested, and faiths questioned. I feel the heat coming from some of our more fired up prophets, and it makes me glad that I don't have to tolerate their self righteousness grandstanding in the flesh.
I have read several books on the Catholic Church, most of them were written to expose the workings of the core leadership of the church, yes they have been doing a lot of bad things, and yes they have been shielding those who support their position in world politics. To be fair to the Catholic Church members though, I'd think that we should be very careful in making the distinction between leadership and membership.
This forum has been a real delight to read and participate in, but I have noticed the tendency by some to get pretty fired up to the point of rage, I have not been in agreement with a lot of the posters on a variety of issues but I don't understand the need by some to hurl insults and scorn to make their point.
Race, religion, self responsibility, guns, and sexuality, seem to be the rallying point for a lot of those with the iron fist in debating, I'm left wondering if anyone reads the outline for this forum, posting fifteen hundred one liners does not make for a "great debate".
Might I ask that people approach this as though they'd never heard of the Catholic Church until they read this post? I ask that you do research and come to an independently drawn conclusion weighing all the pros and cons of what you've read. Do your best to try and ignore any previous held conclusions or personal sentiments that you have for or against the Church and try to draw this conclusion without those feelings or sentiments getting in the way. Feel free to cite factual evidence in support of your opinion.
I realize this may be hard for many people to do. But, this is the "Great Debates" forum and the posts as well as standards should be nothing short of "Great." If you're not willing to put the time and effort into this to make your response great than don't post anything at all. I will report all one-line responses and responses that are clearly given without having read the OP.
Thank you and I look forward to reading your responses.
You have no cited any basis for this 'debate'. What is is you are using to base an opinion as to whether the Catholic Church is 'vile' or not? I suppose I can draw on past controversy revolving around the molestation scandals and such, however, this is not sufficient, in and of itself, to judge the entire organization. Lol, there have been clergy , from ALL faiths that have done despicable things, regular like. On the other hand, many notable people of the Catholic faith , have done great and wonderful things. Mother Theresa comes to mind, as one shining example. Looking at the history of the church does tend to jade ones outlook some. The Inquisition era, and the days of iron fist control from the altar do not look very favorable on a resume', and the Inca and Aztec civilizations were destroyed, and the people brutally slaughtered, using the church as a premise. That was a long time ago though, and the Catholic faith is not the only religion to be exploited in this fashion, by greedy and corrupt men. So, even with all the nasty deeds of the past in mind, I am not prepared to judge the entire faith as the 'one of the most vile to ever grace the planet'. It's leadership has certainly had vile men in it's ranks, but that can be said of a lot of others as well. To make a flat call, one way or the other, on this would not be fair to the many millions of Catholics in the world, who are honest, decent and fantastic people. It is not for me, or any other , to judge thus. That would be far to bold.
Below is a list of books that can shed some light on the church, I think a lot of people aren't aware of the more modern aspects of the Catholic church connections in the world of politics and finance. The more recent history of the Vatican shows that not only is it's past a dubious one but that it's present state of affairs is questionable as well.
Again, I'd like to reiterate my concerns regarding the vast difference between the members of this faith and those at the top who are engaged in some of the vile acts refferenced in the OP's beginning thread. I think it has been established in other posts that the church membersare for the most part good and decent folk's who can't be considered to be in step with the Vatican's darker side.
Did you even read any of the posts in this thread? Not only did I write a rather extensive post supporting my position but I also gave the links to around 50 articles I used while researching my position. Perhaps before you come on here and accuse me of not citing any basis for this debate you should read through the thread.
This is my post on why I feel the Catholic Church is a vile organization:
Did you even read any of the posts in this thread? Not only did I write a rather extensive post supporting my position but I also gave the links to around 50 articles I used while researching my position. Perhaps before you come on here and accuse me of not citing any basis for this debate you should read through the thread.
This is my post on why I feel the Catholic Church is a vile organization:
I based my reply on the OP, and you need to back it down a thou or so bub. I did not 'accuse' you of anything, nor did I phrase anything in a way that could be construed as a personal attack , accusation or attempt to start a ****slinging match of any kind, nor was I being snippy in any way. Time was in short supply this morning, so, I did not read the whole thread. So, I don't know where you get off jumping me like a bear with a sore tooth. I gave a pretty decent rundown of pros and cons of the Catholic church, and cited examples of both good and bad, and simply stated I don't see any cause for ME, personally, to call the organization vile , or not. If you, personally, hate the Catholic church, well, carry on. As to flipping out on me for my reply to your OP, You are seriously out of line. Pardon me all to hell for replying to the title post>>>>>>>>>>sheesh
I based my reply on the OP, and you need to back it down a thou or so bub. I did not 'accuse' you of anything, nor did I phrase anything in a way that could be construed as a personal attack , accusation or attempt to start a ****slinging match of any kind, nor was I being snippy in any way. Time was in short supply this morning, so, I did not read the whole thread. So, I don't know where you get off jumping me like a bear with a sore tooth. I gave a pretty decent rundown of pros and cons of the Catholic church, and cited examples of both good and bad, and simply stated I don't see any cause for ME, personally, to call the organization vile , or not. If you, personally, hate the Catholic church, well, carry on. As to flipping out on me for my reply to your OP, You are seriously out of line. Pardon me all to hell for replying to the title post>>>>>>>>>>sheesh
I replied to the exact sentence I quoted you as saying. Allow me to re-quote it for informational purposes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber
You have no cited any basis for this 'debate.'
I merely pointed out that was contrary to what you said.
Now, forgive me for the following off-topic remark but one of the reasons I wrote my OP the way I did was to not only start a debate but to ask people to do their best in the "Great Debates" forum to support their reasoning and logic behind their opinion.
This is, after all, a forum about GREAT DEBATES. In fact, there is a sticky mentioned at the top of the forum which clearly defines the characteristics required of those who wish to post in this forum.
Now, I'm not saying everyone has to be a master debater but I absolutely cannot see how one could possibly decide to make a statement in this forum under the premise of "extra special standards" without having even read through the thread itself.
You told (I will refrain from using the word 'accuse') me that I did not support my sentiments. The fact of the matter is that I did - extensively. Not only did I do that, but I also provided a plethora of links I used in my research to come to my conclusions - something I felt necessary to do after being accused by another member of not having done any research at all.
I like the idea of this forum but I'm not going to report every post in this forum that is crap - and clearly in violation of the ToS for this forum. However, I will police my own threads to try and make the "Great Debates" forum a place where those who wish to actually debate in the proper way will do so - at least on my threads.
The whole idea of a "Great Debate" has been made a mockery of by those who just want to post just so they can post something. So, no, I will not apologize and perhaps you should take the time out to read the terms of service for this forum and what kind of standards are expected to be upheld herein.
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