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Old 03-05-2010, 04:33 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,266 times
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"Everyone" should be drug tested. What was this person on?
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Old 03-05-2010, 04:52 PM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,169,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkin about it View Post
Your carte blanche description of the effects of marijuana are patently false.
Hardly - if you had any experience either getting high or being around people who do, you'd know that those are all fairly common behaviors of someone who is high. Not a given, but common.

As for Sagan, even if we assume that's a legit quote (I checked and couldn't find a reliable source), his thoughts on it are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Quote:
That's perhaps the single worst rational one can have for disregarding some substances and justifying others. "Well it's always been this way, like it or lump it."
I don't think that was the point; it was that because of how things have been for so long, the odds of changing it are slim. I agree that something shouldn't stay a certain way because of that though.

Quote:
Moreover, marijuana is a plant. It's literally making nature illegal.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. What is with this "it's a plant" thing? So what? Being natural or man-made has nothing to do with being safe.

Quote:
Also, don't know if this is important to you, but it also kills you. Pot doesn't.
Extremely few people die from alcohol. Do you know how much/how long you have to drink to die from alcohol poisoning, kidney failure, etc?

Anyway, back to the topic, which is pre-screening and why/why not. Potential to affect job performance and being illegal are the biggies.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:03 PM
 
4,721 posts, read 13,693,841 times
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"Extremely few people die from alcohol"


alcohol deaths per year
drinking and driving causes over 25,ooo deaths a year. overall 100,000 deaths occur each year due to the effects of alcohol.Correction: According to the NHTSA web site (nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/RNotes/2006/810686.pdf), there were 43,443 alcohol related traffic fatalities in 2005 in the USA. As a comparison, AIDS claimed 18,000 lives in 2003.
How can alcohol be blamed for 100,000 deaths each year?

5% of all deaths from diseases of the circulatory system are attributed to alcohol.
15% of all deaths from diseases of the respiratory system are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all deaths from accidents caused by fire and flames are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all accidental drownings are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all suicides are attributed to alcohol.
40% of all deaths due to accidental falls are attributed to alcohol.
45% of all deaths in automobile accidents are attributed to alcohol.
60% of all homicides are attributed to alcohol.

(Sources: NIDA Report, the Scientific American and Addiction Research Foundation of Ontario.) Also see Alcohol Consumption and Mortality, Alcohol poisoning deaths, CDC report,

Last edited by nanannie; 03-05-2010 at 05:11 PM..
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:08 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,405,912 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2000 View Post
Extremely few people die from alcohol. Do you know how much/how long you have to drink to die from alcohol poisoning, kidney failure, etc?
2006 US mortality:
  • Number of alcoholic liver disease deaths: 13,050
  • Number of alcohol-induced deaths, excluding accidents and homicides: 22,073
http://cdc.gov/NCHS/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_14.pdf


Deaths from Marijuana: ZERO.
Try to find a valid source attributing death to overdosing on marijuana, either from short-term or long-term use; there are none. Do you know how how much/how long you have to ingest marijuana in order to die from it? There are no documented cases of anyone reaching that point, ever. Yet it's been used throughout human history; many thousands of years at least.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:12 PM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,292 posts, read 10,214,629 times
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It should depend on the type of job. If it requires the safety of others "yes" it should be included, if it does not then "no" why waste the money on testing?
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:53 PM
 
133 posts, read 241,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
The issue with marijuana is it's a concealer for other drugs. That's why it's a banned substance in many sporting leagues and the Olympics -- not because they're concerned that marijuana is a performance enhancer but because it throws off the test for substances that are performance enhancers.

Even if it weren't, the fact is a company can't be too careful when it comes to liability these days.


Is this a fact or myth.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:15 PM
 
770 posts, read 717,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2000 View Post
Hardly - if you had any experience either getting high or being around people who do, you'd know that those are all fairly common behaviors of someone who is high. Not a given, but common.
Wrong. I have experience in both areas. Your problem, again, is common: [MOD CUT/personal attack] Thus, the lowest common denominator of the folks you tend to hang around are the types that cannot intellectually benefit from cannabis. If you've got a low-wattage brain, cannabis isn't helping. You need caffeine to help you stack papers more efficiently, or load boxes, or whatever it is you. If, conversely, you are involved in things that benefit, or indeed require, some outside-the-box thinking, the utility is unmatched in the natural world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2000 View Post
As for Sagan, even if we assume that's a legit quote (I checked and couldn't find a reliable source), his thoughts on it are irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Why would the thoughts of one of the greatest minds of our time be relevant when discussing the utility of cannabis on the weekends? Indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2000 View Post
I don't think that was the point; it was that because of how things have been for so long, the odds of changing it are slim. I agree that something shouldn't stay a certain way because of that though.


That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. What is with this "it's a plant" thing? So what? Being natural or man-made has nothing to do with being safe.
Reading comprehension would have made my point crystal clear: the individual quoted sourced more generalist social constructs as a justification for alcohol legality, and the converse argument for cannabis illegality. I pointed out that cannabis is of course more established in our natural world, "older" (a point of contention with the individual).
Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2000 View Post
Extremely few people die from alcohol. Do you know how much/how long you have to drink to die from alcohol poisoning, kidney failure, etc?
See above, somebody beat me to it. Alas the point the remains. Obviously, as you should know, the context of alcohol abuse often includes behaviors attributed to actions of those under the influence. If you want to preclude that, fine, but don't make the converse, tired argument about "stoned drivers," as a few have in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2000 View Post
Anyway, back to the topic, which is pre-screening and why/why not. Potential to affect job performance and being illegal are the biggies.
They aren't, actually. The "biggie" is that the screen is realistically only going to catch cannabis the vast majority of the time, as THC stays in your system for up to a month. Most hard drugs are flushed within a day or two, thus, heroin on Friday is fine if you have a drug screen Tuesday. Cannabis on vacation 3 weeks prior, however, will get you fired.

Last edited by Ibginnie; 03-06-2010 at 08:42 PM..
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:18 PM
 
133 posts, read 241,183 times
Reputation: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkin about it View Post
This is one of the reasons why I moved towards self-employment. The fact that an employer will literally shake your pee in front of you to see if you've been having fun on the weekends is the last straw for the thinking man who respects himself. At that point you are just a piece of property; a piece of meat. You're barely even a man. What you do on the weekends is now in question.

As per marijuana specifically, that's a whole new level of stupid. The fact that the most harmless way to expand ones consciousness is illegal and may preclude people from employment speaks to the level of stupidity and Corporatism that is The United States.



I thought i was perhaps the only one who finds someone asking for my bodily fluids,fingernail clippings or hair an egregious violation of my constitutional rights.Guilty until proven innocent? That's constitutional?
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:28 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,182,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkin about it View Post
Your carte blanche description of the effects of marijuana are patently false. I won't elaborate as I'm semi-busy, but I'll leave it to Dr. Carl Sagan: " "I am convinced that there are genuine and valid levels of perception available with cannabis (and probably with other drugs) which are, through the defects of our society and our educational system, un-available to us without such drugs." Your error is not uncommon: you happen to know losers who smoke pot and are open about it. That's the silver lining with illegal drug use: the winners who smoke have to remain anonymous for social and political reasons. Thus your perception of users is inherently skewed.
And in some cases, they are right. I know a millionaire who was such by 25. He does heroin once a month or so. Writes stories while high. Most are terrible, but some are good. He enjoys it. You'd be surprised what people with an interesting, intelligent perspective and a little self-discipline can do.

That's perhaps the single worst rational one can have for disregarding some substances and justifying others. "Well it's always been this way, like it or lump it." Moreover, marijuana is a plant. It's literally making nature illegal. I think it's been around a bit before alcohol. That's incorrect. Cigarettes contain a plethora of chemicals, from tar to rat poison, that have been shown with utter consistency to effect everything from immediate mood to sexual capacities. Also, don't know if this is important to you, but it also kills you. Pot doesn't.


This is the classic contextual argument given for totalitarianism throughout the ages. Eventually, somebody might do something bad if they do XYZ, so best to just eradicate freedoms for everyone. If you're in favor of totalitarianism, good for you. If not, rework this stance. Freedom is not just a political cliche; it means something vivid. It means allowing people to partake in activities that do not directly effect you and your safety, even if you don't like them. I think people with guns are generally paranoid and creep me out, but it's none of my business whether or not they carry. So, I tend to get along with gun users, as we both believe in freedom. See? Just because someone down the road might get addicted and might do bad things to the community does not give just cause for illegality in a free society.

The gateway theory has been debunked thoroughly. It is not even thrown around in anti-cannabis circles anymore. Saying marijuana has a causation with heroin is like saying Cheeseburgers have a causation with heroin; they both may be actions taken by the burnout, but neither are the causation, or even relevant to the discussion. If you've smoked pot you'd know intuitively how absurd the theory is; pot is a mild "downer," giving you a very mild feeling one way or another. Heroin will stop you in tracks and change your life. There is no linear progression between the drugs.

Great post thinkin! The only thing I will add is about the gateway theory. I agree 100% that there is no gateway, expect to the extent that due to the illegality of pot and other drugs a pot user will naturally be around dealers and other counter culture types who do use other drugs.

A dealer is in it to make money so it is a no brainer that they will offer or even give samples of harder drugs, in hopes that you will become addicted. It is a good business strategy since pot is more of an occasional and recreational drug and an addict keeps coming back every day.
Reregulate drugs and you remove the dealers and pushers. The unregulated illegal market keeps them in business.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:59 PM
 
133 posts, read 241,183 times
Reputation: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egobop View Post
I find it amusing that people find that laughing at things that simply are not funny and then becoming hungry and tired when the "idiot" effect wears off is actually "expanding one's consciousness". I am sure a good number of people that use heroine, cocaine, acid, meth, pain killers and a plethora of other drugs will tell you that these drugs are harmlessly expanding their conscience as well.

I also enjoy the comparison to alcohol and tobacco when discussing legalizing other drugs. The major difference is that alcohol has been accepted in nearly every society long before this country was in existence so to just up and make it illegal is not an easy thing to do. If alcohol was something that just came out in the past few years and never existed before you can bet that it would be illegal. As far as cigarettes go, although they are not good for you, they do not cloud your judgement or interfere with a person's normal thought process. Just as with alcohol, if tobacco had only been around for a few years it would be illegal as well.

I am actually of the opinion that both tobacco and alcohol should be fazed out and made illegal. How? If the legal age to drink is now 21, change it to 22, the next year to 23, the following year to 24, etc. This way you are not taking it away from people who can legally drink one day and telling them they can't the next. You are simply stopping those who are currently not legally allowed to drink alcohol from being able to legally. The same can be done regarding cigarettes. Why will this not happen? I believe this does not happen due to the amount of money these substances generate for the economy as well as for the government in the form of taxes.

I do not know if anyone posting here knows any hardcore drug abusers that use the "bad" drugs such as heroine, cocaine, etc. that they have known since an early age. I actually know people that I grew up with that became hardcore drug abusers and all of the ones I know did in fact start off smoking marijuana. The majority of the ones I know started using the other drugs while smoking marijuana-take a hit of a joint, then do a line of cocaine, etc. Is marijuana always the stepping stone to harder drugs? Of course not; although sometimes it is. The "sometimes" is enough to keep it illegal in my opinion.


I think it should be fazed out that you can reproduce.Myself and the other freedom riders brigade(grey beard division)will come and tattoo your forehead with a numbered tattoo.I hope you don't find this offensive.Then you and whoever wants to go with you gets a free transport to the communist country of your choosing.We will even give you your own reality show and fit you for a helmet cam.I would name the show,....maybe Dancing with the Commies.Since this is still almost a democratic nation,you can name your own show.First season in North Korea.You will be giving yourself an opportunity to live the life you want,and teaching americans addicted to apathy of the erosion of their Constitutional Rights. A Government OF,BY and FOR the people.
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