Will Gays and Fathers EVER have equal rights? (drugs, soldiers, death)

[nightcrawler]

Well, I am gay, and the father of 3 boys.
and they are all well adjusted.
we are 1 big happy family.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Tin Knocker

On the other hand Homosexuals have been placed above mere heterosexuals & allowed by law to make believe that same sex couples constitute a marriage. If anything the current trend discriminates against dozens of other sexual deviants who cant marry sheep, goats, children or rubber dolls.

This post is so ridiculous I shouldn't even respond. But I can't help but wonder out loud how allowing same sex couples to marry somehow puts them above heterosexual couples???? That just doesn't compute at all.

...And oh, yeah it'll be no time at all before we're marrying ourselves to sheep & chicken. I mean after all, that's what happens in other countries where same sex marriage is legal (duhhh) <sarc>

[marmac]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

This post is so ridiculous I shouldn't even respond. But I can't help but wonder out loud how allowing same sex couples to marry somehow puts them above heterosexual couples???? That just doesn't compute at all.

...And oh, yeah it'll be no time at all before we're marrying ourselves to sheep & chicken. I mean after all, that's what happens in other countries where same sex marriage is legal (duhhh) <sarc>

perversion is perversion

[jcoltrane]

Wow!

Of course these are quite difficult questions, which need to be attacked unemotionally and methodically, with logic and reason. Of course, such, for most people is rather difficult. Many people tend to the emotional, and few can be truly objective.

I wonder are your questions political, that is in terms of pitting opposing interests; or, are they true questions of right and wrong, of what's best for society? I wonder. Personally, I'm interested in what's best for society, which may not be best for the interest of individuals, or a specific group. The overall interests of society, I firmly believe should trump those of any group and/or individual interest.

All that said, I think the underlying question behind ALL of your individual questions, and the path to the answer for all of them is this:

Is all discrimination bad; are there any societal benefits to discrimination?

If discrimination is totally and completely wrong. Then all your questions are answered; and I believe positively so for you.

Yet, if discrimination is not totally and completely wrong always, then there are deeper truths to be sought.

I, personally, believe to the depths of my soul, that there are deeper truths to be sought.

I, also, believe, that logic and reason provide the way and the answer(s).

I do firmly believe that the rights of the child are greater than the rights of the parents. The question then is how does this manifest itself within present day society?

I believe in tradition. I believe in nature. I believe in nurture. I do not believe in divorce. I believe that once children are born, the obligation is not to yourselves (the parents), but to the children. I believe that supreme sacrifice s/b made.

I believe divorce is sought and granted too often, easily, and simply. I, also, believe that divorce, as well as marriage, is a societal issue, not one of individual (rights).

Marriage, Divorce and other similar issues, s/b formulated and determined regarding that which is best for the welfare of society. The welfare of children is at the heart of the welfare of society.

I believe it is the mother's natural place to nurture. Father's can, to some degree, take the place of nurturer, but only with exception. Courts should seek such "exception" in the event of divorce. If it is not existent, then a child s/b placed with the mother, as long as she exhibits natural motherly tendencies. It s/b acknowledged that such is not the case 100%; but, is overwhelmingly so. To err, would be to err in the best interest of society. The bias s/b with the mother.

but on which parent is the most mature and capable...

Mature and capable of what precisely?

nurturing, educating, financially providing, what?

Q. Will laws ever be introduced into child custody disputes which focus, not on gender, but on capabilities?

Again, what is the meaning of "capabilities".

It appears that you desire a gender neutral approach.

The question then is whether "gender neutral" is the correct approach. Of course, there is always exception; but, law is made to address the norm or the average---not, necessarily the exception.

So, I presume, for your satisfaction, "gender neutral" should become the norm. Again, the question is whether such is the correct and/or normative approach?

Going back to my premises that puts discrimination at the heart of the issue(s). I think human nature and/or the nature of humans need be examined. IMO, back to the beginning, through the evolution of man and civilization, the question to ask is what is/has been the natural evolution and development of men, women, and homosexuals; their relationships and natural sexual order.

Are women truly naturally the nurturers; are men truly naturally the providers and protectors; is their a natural role for homosexuals?

If there is a natural order should this order be altered, manifested in a manner contrary to the natural?

How has the natural order benefited society? How has it harmed society.

One of the greatest questions:

Is homosexuality a part of the natural order? Or, is it a aberrant development?

Has homosexuality effected the natural order. If so, how? Has homosexuality been beneficial or harmful.

[jcoltrane]

Originally Posted by NVplumber

The trashing of Fathers is an issue that frosts me no end.. I have seen far to much of it, and been on the **** end of it myself. A friend of mine was ordered by a judge to pay $3000.00 more a month than he made in 'spousal support' to his not yet ex wife, and SHE was the one out messing around with other guys (and girls) and SHE was the one who left.When the poor sap asked this idiot how he was to come up with this kind of dough, he was told ."well, you have credit cards, don't you?". The kids were still with him, he was ordered to surrender custody to her, and to vacate the house as well. This judge needs to be thrown off the bench!! This kind of nonsense happens on all to regular a basis. There are some groups out here advocating for the rights of fathers, and more attention is being given to the issue, however, it is far more likely that the mother, regardless of her fitness, will be given full custody of children in a divorce. Not always, but a grand percentage of the time. Much depends on the judge presiding. Most are either to afraid of appearing 'insensitive' or are blatantly biased for whatever reason.

I put to you this question:

Is the sort of circumstance described above, a matter of "Father's rights" versus mothers; or, is it a matter of feminist rights being asserted within American law?

Rights and laws being altered and created new to the benefit of women. There is an active Feminist lobby and movement; but, there is NO equivalent force for men.

As long as this is the circumstance, men will continue to be legally disadvantaged.

It has little to due with a bias toward mothers. That's yesteryear.

Today it is pure sexual warfare. A movement for dominance.

It's mostly a war of Feminist homosexual women vs. White heterosexual males. White males are losing and taking down all males with them.

[texdav]

Bascvially it thermother giving birth that has always had her rights above men in the parent cycle. Its also like to remain true.As far as homosexual they are centuries bhind with few thinking of them as eqaul to men even. just teh way it is in human relations and beliefs.

[Pappy&Me]

Originally Posted by TumbleBug

The very last legal descrimination is against fathers and gays.

Fathers no longer have rights to raise their own children after divorce, in my country (Australia) and I understand it's true in the USA as well.

The 'rights' of the child are more important than the right of their father and that right means that children (all children apparently) prefer to live in one home (with their mum and stepdad) and see their dad as little as possible...

I think this is discrimination, legalised gender discrimination.

I, personally, don't think that where a child lives after divorce should be based on the gender of the parent - but on which parent is the most mature and capable...

So my first debate question is

Q. Will laws ever be introduced into child custody disputes which focus, not on gender, but on capabilities?

Furthermore, is it possible that society at large, will stop believing that mothers are automatically better parents than fathers?

Regarding the legalised sexual orientation discrimination...

Q Do you think that same sex couples will be permitted to marry with the same rights as opposite sex couples everywhere in the Western world anytime soon?

I feel sad to live in a world where people are discriminated against and are hurt by narrow-minded laws.

I don't know the answers - but I have hope.

Every homosexual I've met was 'narrow minded ' so no they should not be allowed to have kids ,imo .

Kids need as normal environment as possible to grow into good adults . Same sex couples are not sexually normal by any means .

Also because of politicle correctness most homosexuals can get away with thngs others can't .

Look at the PRIDE Parades where the children are dragged into the rally where the adults are having sex in the open, where lesbians are walking with naked breast and men are giving oral sex to each other and the police do nothing .

Also included in these 'parades ' are members of NAMBLA who push for sex with children .

[Pappy&Me]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

This post is so ridiculous I shouldn't even respond. But I can't help but wonder out loud how allowing same sex couples to marry somehow puts them above heterosexual couples???? That just doesn't compute at all.

...And oh, yeah it'll be no time at all before we're marrying ourselves to sheep & chicken. I mean after all, that's what happens in other countries where same sex marriage is legal (duhhh) <sarc>

Tell this to the zoophiles in your parades . Might want to mention it to the NABLA members too .

[Pappy&Me]

Originally Posted by jcoltrane

I put to you this question:

Is the sort of circumstance described above, a matter of "Father's rights" versus mothers; or, is it a matter of feminist rights being asserted within American law?

Rights and laws being altered and created new to the benefit of women. There is an active Feminist lobby and movement; but, there is NO equivalent force for men.

As long as this is the circumstance, men will continue to be legally disadvantaged.

It has little to due with a bias toward mothers. That's yesteryear.

Today it is pure sexual warfare. A movement for dominance.

It's mostly a war of Feminist homosexual women vs. White heterosexual males. White males are losing and taking down all males with them.

The fems are losing too, i see them now alone and depressed in their old age . Most can't keep a real man or any man for long .

So goes the nation when the familiy unit is destroyed . As we are witnessing today the fall of America .

[Mooseketeer]

I certainly hope we one day become enlightened enough to give true equality to both Fathers and Gay people/ couples.

I doubt we will ever reach this stage reading some of the bigoted comments on many threads of this Forum though.

I do not see why we should treat either groups differently than Mothers/ Heterosexual people.

Discrimination is not only socially un-just it is also stupid and intellectually disingenuous.

Many countries already have equal legal rights for Fathers and Gay people .

Unless someone is a criminal and is harming others then I do not see why we should restrict their legal rights. As a heterosexual woman I seem to have many rights not granted to either Gay people nor to Men and I do not see why.

I am no more fit to be a Parent simply because I have a vagina and a womb nor am I am somehow superior because I am attracted to members of the opposite sex.

I expect to be able to love and marry the person I love and would like to see the favour returned to Gay people. I expect not be looked down upon because I am heterosexual and would like the same courtsey extended to all consenting adults. As long as nobody is forced to marry someone against their wishes, whose business is it and who bloody cares if a man loves a man and wants to marry him .

We should be promoting stable, long term relationships whether Gay or straight. And I would love to see Fathers have the same legal rights to their Children as Mothers. Being a Mother does not make you any the more a better parent.

I was raised by my Father when my Parents divorced who did a much better job than my Mother ever could have.

As for the comments about "deviants and sex with goats".... grow up , grow a brain and think before you speak. Abusing an animal and bestiality is not quite the same as being in a loving committed relationship with another human being whatever the sex mix. If you genuinely "think" so ( not that thinking is involved in that post) then quite frankly there is no hope of a cure for you. To be that narrow minded and self righteous is mind boggling.

Bigotry is not big and it's not clever. A shrink might come in handy if the best someone can up with is those moronic arguments. I guess the art of debate truly is flourishing... Intellectual discourse at its very best.

Philosophers, thinkers and legislators must be quaking in their boots right now.