U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Old 03-10-2010, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 9,307,864 times
Reputation: 1260
The Fair tax replaces all payroll withholdings with a consumption tax.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-10-2010, 02:24 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,521 posts, read 4,250,724 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by OleTomCat View Post
The Fair tax replaces all payroll withholdings with a consumption tax.
The reason this will never fly is as Greg says, it will hit the lower percentile the most. As it is now about half of the population pays no income tax and a large percentage get back all payroll tax such as SS and Medi through the earned income tax credit.

We need to move in a direction that won't make our cost of living higher, this is why the Geolibertarian way is the only way to go.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,744 posts, read 37,239,681 times
Reputation: 28718
Quote:
Originally Posted by OleTomCat View Post
like I said before you bash something you really should atleast get a general understanding of it.
Johnnytang said "I think fair is everybody paying the same amount."

I disagreed with that on principle, taking it at face value. Neither he nor I said nothing about any fantastic plans that you might have read about. I commented only on the fixed X/Y formula applied to "everyone". Try to follow along.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 9,307,864 times
Reputation: 1260
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
The reason this will never fly is as Greg says, it will hit the lower percentile the most. As it is now about half of the population pays no income tax and a large percentage get back all payroll tax such as SS and Medi through the earned income tax credit.

We need to move in a direction that won't make our cost of living higher, this is why the Geolibertarian way is the only way to go.
Once again, you need to read the legislation and understand what it does. The Fair tax does not hit the lower income population any harder than the current system and actually gives them more money since they no longer have to pay SS and medicare taxes. Geoliberalism is more like it with socialist views of not owning property...
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 9,307,864 times
Reputation: 1260
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Johnnytang said "I think fair is everybody paying the same amount."

I disagreed with that on principle, taking it at face value. Neither he nor I said nothing about any fantastic plans that you might have read about. I commented only on the fixed X/Y formula applied to "everyone". Try to follow along.
That is what Johnnytang said, not I. I am a proponent of 'The Fair Tax'. You attacked me and the "fantastic plans that you might have read about" without even reading what I was writing........
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 06:24 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,521 posts, read 4,250,724 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Consumption taxes, particularly on necessities like food, cloths and shelter, are the most regressive and unjust taxes imaginable. Taxing luxuries like cigarettes, booze and video games is just about as bad.

A fair and reasonable way to support the government spending is to stop borrowing money from the wealthy and start taxing it from them. I suggest a progressive (10 to 85%) tax on all income from all sources with a deductable equal to the 85th percentile of income. Countervailing tariffs based on the savings attributable to sub standard wages, lax environmental controls and government subsidy would add to the amount collected.

This would place the burden of operating the government on the people that profit most from the government and the tariffs would allow the redevelopment of American industry and all the jobs that go with it. Without an income tax burden most working class people would be able to buy the American made products as well as affording to educate their kids without incurring ruinous debt.

This is part of a plan to restructure the American economy for the benefit of the people that create the wealth instead of for the top one percent that currently sequesters most of the wealth.
Part of the reason why so many people fall into the camp you are in is their lack of understanding between the wealthy and those with high taxable income. When someone says “Tax the Rich” we picture Trump, Buffet, Gates, the hedge fund guys, etc. with the Yachts, Rolls, gold etc. But those are the WEALTHY, not the high income tax payers (the Rich).

People like Gates and Buffet pay very little in tax because they make very little taxable income. Their billion dollar + charitable donations give then deductions so they can take whatever INCOME they need from their wealth and have it tax free. Raising the top rate to 85% won’t hurt them a bit.

Who it will hurt are the 4 million households that make over $200,000 a year. Many of those people are not wealthy, they either received a onetime event such as a house or stock sale, they had a great year in sales or a company bonus, and they are “rich” for a year. Then after all the taxes are paid they are back to being a regular Joe but they may have been able to pay off some debt or put a kid through college, hardly the lifestyles of the rich and famous.

The more you rely on the “transient rich” the more unpredictable revenue becomes. This is why Gray Davis was canned in CA a few years ago. He was a victim of putting all his revenue eggs in the high income basket. In 00 and 01 we saw about 45,000 people file tax returns each year of $1 million or more in CA. The tax was skewed towards taxing those people for our revenue. So of course a lot came in but Davis and other spent every dime and had the new agencies all ready in place waiting for the windfall from 02. It never came; the number of million dollar returns fell by 60% along with income and revenue. Most of those returns were stock option, onetime events. This is the same reason why we had a surplus in the Federal Budget turn into a deficit between 98-02. The only percentile where income and taxes actually dropped where for the high income wage earners and that is because the number of people in those brackets dropped.

I won’t even get into how your idea will change behavior.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 06:27 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,521 posts, read 4,250,724 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by OleTomCat View Post
Once again, you need to read the legislation and understand what it does. The Fair tax does not hit the lower income population any harder than the current system and actually gives them more money since they no longer have to pay SS and medicare taxes. Geoliberalism is more like it with socialist views of not owning property...
They don't pay SS and Medi tax, the EIC gives it all back via a tax credit refund.

I guess you haven’t read up on Geolibertarians enough, it is nothing like that. Marx was anti-land tax. You can own all the property you buy, you just pay the government to protect your deed and your taxes drop if you develop it.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 9,307,864 times
Reputation: 1260
Marx was anti-personal property, all property belonged to the state to the collective you rent it from the government that is why it is called land rent........

EIC doesn't cover all SS and medicare taxes and the fair tax only affects that spending above the poverty level, they get all of their pay checks they don't have to file returns (which cost money) or anything else, April 15th just becomes another spring day instead of Tax day.......

Read up on it at Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans For Fair Taxation
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 06:55 PM
 
2,844 posts, read 2,026,166 times
Reputation: 3499
Quote:
Originally Posted by OleTomCat View Post
Marx was anti-personal property, all property belonged to the state to the collective you rent it from the government that is why it is called land rent........
No, Marx had a very vague idea about the bright stateless future. He considered capitalism a necessary step of human development and state capitalism (socialism) to be some kind of transitional phase towards communism. Despite the fact that Marx was really, really vague about communism, one thing was clear - communism is something that is stateless and governmentless. Unfortunately, pillars of talk radio industry haven't even bothered to read "Marx in 90 minutes.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2010, 08:10 AM
 
1,343 posts, read 1,807,220 times
Reputation: 1243
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Johnnytang said "I think fair is everybody paying the same amount."

I disagreed with that on principle, taking it at face value. Neither he nor I said nothing about any fantastic plans that you might have read about. I commented only on the fixed X/Y formula applied to "everyone". Try to follow along.
Your problem is that you take that at face value. Obviously not everyone can pay X/Y. Kids can't. Other groups can't. So exceptions have to be made, numbers have to be readjusted. The original question is what is 'fair', not 'please devise a comprehensive tax plan including all exceptions, outliers, and every possible scenario.'
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top