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Old 03-29-2010, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,497,590 times
Reputation: 8779

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Capitalism is fine, on a small scale. The problem is when mega-corporations are formed and companies are deemed 'too big to fail' for fear of their huge impact on the economy.
When corporations become too big they start telling the government what to do and the government is no longer 'of the people, by the people, and for the people'.
Then we see food and drug inspectors looking the other way, bribery of one sort or another, laws that restrict business for the public good being done away with or ignored. We see, perhaps worst of all, competition being actually stifled. We see conglomerates who do not innovate but just produce variations on a theme, like the drug companies do. You see viable patents being bought up by these corporations and left to rot on shelves - why rock the boat? You see price fixing.

Please remember what the auto industry looked like before the Japanese came on the U.S. market. Remember built in depreciation - your new car was expected to last three years before falling apart?

When corporations get too big and government worships at their feet we have all sorts of pollution, we have global warming, we have less monies being put into R&D for alternate energy - because many of those alternates can be generated right at the homefront, getting rid of that nice stream of monthly income that the gas and oil companies collect. If there is a substitute for fossil fuels, it will be nuclear, despite the waste disposal disaster, because that ensures that steady stream of income, once again.

In a capitalist society gone mad, people actually die from the food they eat because the government no longer inspects it adequately.

Politicians, most of htem, are put into a position where they must cater to business. THey will lose their jobs if they don't. They must raise money for their re-election campaign the minute they get into office, and the source for that is the corporation.

Nobody wants to talk about all national elections being ONLY publicly funded, although it can be done. We can shorten the campaign time. We still own the PUBLIC airwaves and can demand free time from the media for campaigns.

In a capitalist society the media is owned by business, meaning they control the controversy, they decide the issues.

How do we think Nafta and Cafta got through? People did not want them.

How did the first 13 million illegal immigrants get amnesty? The public did not want this. In much of the country the black construction companies have been replaced by teams of illegals. A lot of these blue collar jobs are a way for a family to work its way up, providing a better life for the next generation. My family did this. They could not do so now. Those jobs are gone.

Why are the very people who caused and allowed the worldwide financial problems we are now facing STILL in office? Still at the wheel? The people don't want this.

Look at alternative medicine. India is patenting much of its unique herbal remedies. U.S. drug lobbies try to prevent citizens from seeking alternate treatment, yet they send people to countries like India to find the active ingredients in such herbs and package them, chemically, into pills to sell to us at an exorbitant price. Why do we pay the highest prices in the world for drugs that our own companies make?

Why is the U.S. military using mercenaries, paying ridiculously high prices for them? Could it be that if our kids were fighting we would not want wars such as Iraq? No one questions how that war helped Halliburtin and Blackwater(now 'XE').

It seems as though every problem our country is facing is tied to government crawling up the dark spaces to big business. Most of the jobs in this country have come from small to medium sized business. So has most of the innovation. Why does the government not encourage these guys? Because we have changed laws and allowed the big guys to take over.

We no longer have a competitive capitalist society. We are a CORPORATIST county, meaning the large conglomerated rule. There is no longer a healthy competition going on here. We are dying as a nation, adopting the lifestyle of the third world, the mass of people being peasants with a few ruling families at the top.

I feel sorry for kids today, what they will have to face in the future. You think it's bad now - it's just beginning!
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Old 03-29-2010, 08:06 AM
 
152 posts, read 93,127 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You're a cheerleader for the home team, and you call me ludicrous?

Yes,, I am, and you pretty much call yourself ludicrous by your gtibberish. BUT, I support your right to make a fool of yourself.

How many Chinese movies have you seen? How many books have you read by modern Chinese writers? How do you know they are not creative? You think the junk force-marketed by the big three American recording producers is artistically creative? When I told my American doctor about what a Chinese doctor did for me, he just shook his head sadly, and said "I'd sure love to know what was in those pills".

Ya, China where they shoot people on any lame-ass excuse they can dream up so they can sell their organs.

Big Pharma creatively invents pills that enable fat Americans to eat a whole pizza at 10 pm and not get heartburn. And make billions selling them. Now, there's a creative breakthrough!

WOW, for once you have made sense. They also invent drugs that fight cancer. YOu have heard of cancer, haven't you? If not, I suggest wiki, if you've heard of that.

Remind me again---was it the capitalists or the communists that put the first satellite into orbit? And the first man in space?
It was the communist, but not to benefit mankind. And who went to the moon - and back, repeatedly. Who earn more wealth in a day, than the other earns in a year. Who coined the term "they pretentd to pay me, and I pretend to work"?

The PIG communists coined that phrase, while the U.S. did the rest.

I assume you have put your money (if you have any) where your mouth is and are living in a socialist pig stye. Please advise.

MahaAhiOno (Cheerleader in Chief, Freedom and Liberty, Inc.
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Old 03-29-2010, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,346,398 times
Reputation: 36094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahiahiono View Post
It was the communist, but not to benefit mankind. .
If not for mankind, for whom DID the Soviets develop space flight?
And then the capitalists followed and duplicated what the Soviets did, but we did it to benefit stockholders of Raytheon and General Dynamics and Lockheed, not all of mankind.

The thing you hate about communism is the fact that what they do is to benefit ALL the people equally and collectively, which is a principle you think is evil. And then when they do succeed, you bitterly denounce them of NOT wanting to do what you hate.

Please stand back and look at how you contradict yourself.
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Indiana
324 posts, read 506,407 times
Reputation: 351
goldengrain, excellent post!
Glad to see, some people are able to face the reality.
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,803 posts, read 7,375,257 times
Reputation: 2960
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulpan View Post
goldengrain, excellent post!
Glad to see, some people are able to face the reality.

What does he say that has anything to do with capitalism? All of the ills mentioned are cronyism and corporatism both only exist due to the government.

The people who don't face reality are those who think that a government created corporation, in cahoots with politicians and bureaucrats who set out to restrict competition to those on the outside, have anything to do with freedom and capitalism.
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Old 03-29-2010, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
4,444 posts, read 4,619,303 times
Reputation: 3353
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
Capitalism is fine, on a small scale. The problem is when mega-corporations are formed and companies are deemed 'too big to fail' for fear of their huge impact on the economy.
When corporations become too big they start telling the government what to do and the government is no longer 'of the people, by the people, and for the people'.
Then we see food and drug inspectors looking the other way, bribery of one sort or another, laws that restrict business for the public good being done away with or ignored. We see, perhaps worst of all, competition being actually stifled. We see conglomerates who do not innovate but just produce variations on a theme, like the drug companies do. You see viable patents being bought up by these corporations and left to rot on shelves - why rock the boat? You see price fixing.

Please remember what the auto industry looked like before the Japanese came on the U.S. market. Remember built in depreciation - your new car was expected to last three years before falling apart?

When corporations get too big and government worships at their feet we have all sorts of pollution, we have global warming, we have less monies being put into R&D for alternate energy - because many of those alternates can be generated right at the homefront, getting rid of that nice stream of monthly income that the gas and oil companies collect. If there is a substitute for fossil fuels, it will be nuclear, despite the waste disposal disaster, because that ensures that steady stream of income, once again.

In a capitalist society gone mad, people actually die from the food they eat because the government no longer inspects it adequately.

Politicians, most of htem, are put into a position where they must cater to business. THey will lose their jobs if they don't. They must raise money for their re-election campaign the minute they get into office, and the source for that is the corporation.

Nobody wants to talk about all national elections being ONLY publicly funded, although it can be done. We can shorten the campaign time. We still own the PUBLIC airwaves and can demand free time from the media for campaigns.

In a capitalist society the media is owned by business, meaning they control the controversy, they decide the issues.

How do we think Nafta and Cafta got through? People did not want them.

How did the first 13 million illegal immigrants get amnesty? The public did not want this. In much of the country the black construction companies have been replaced by teams of illegals. A lot of these blue collar jobs are a way for a family to work its way up, providing a better life for the next generation. My family did this. They could not do so now. Those jobs are gone.

Why are the very people who caused and allowed the worldwide financial problems we are now facing STILL in office? Still at the wheel? The people don't want this.

Look at alternative medicine. India is patenting much of its unique herbal remedies. U.S. drug lobbies try to prevent citizens from seeking alternate treatment, yet they send people to countries like India to find the active ingredients in such herbs and package them, chemically, into pills to sell to us at an exorbitant price. Why do we pay the highest prices in the world for drugs that our own companies make?

Why is the U.S. military using mercenaries, paying ridiculously high prices for them? Could it be that if our kids were fighting we would not want wars such as Iraq? No one questions how that war helped Halliburtin and Blackwater(now 'XE').

It seems as though every problem our country is facing is tied to government crawling up the dark spaces to big business. Most of the jobs in this country have come from small to medium sized business. So has most of the innovation. Why does the government not encourage these guys? Because we have changed laws and allowed the big guys to take over.

We no longer have a competitive capitalist society. We are a CORPORATIST county, meaning the large conglomerated rule. There is no longer a healthy competition going on here. We are dying as a nation, adopting the lifestyle of the third world, the mass of people being peasants with a few ruling families at the top.

I feel sorry for kids today, what they will have to face in the future. You think it's bad now - it's just beginning!

Of all the posts I've read on this thread to date, yours lines up with my thinking almost perfectly. To me, this illustrates the fatal flaw of any capitalistic system - the tendency for the moneyed interests to subvert the government to suit their own ends. In Latin America and Africa, this has pretty much been in place since the beginning, which never allowed a middle class to develop such as the US, Europe and Japan did in the 20th century. But in America, particularly, the corporate elite have found a way to buy and sell elections, forcing the vast majority of elected officials to hew to their interests instead of ours. A glaring example of this is the recently passed health care bill, which supports insurance companies and BigPharma, but doesn't provide a lick of extra health care (whom this bill supposedly supports )

This is not to say that capitalism can't work - I just think it's just subject to the ethics of the people under that system - just like the other "isms" that have been tried in comparatively recent history. If we, as a people, have good morals and ethics, communism and socialism would work, and "pure" capitalism would work better. A hybrid system that provides the advantages of capitalism and socialism while mitigating the disadvantages of them would probably work best.

Another problem I see with capitalism, is how it requires infinite growth in order to function. Much like a shark has to swim 24/7 every day of its life in the sea, capitalism can only survive in a positive-growth economy, mainly due to the repayment of interest on debt. So what happens when the total debt outstanding becomes too much of a burden? Why, the government sucks it up, of course, in order to keep the economy afloat. And then what? How is that debt serviced along with ever-increasing demands on the national treasury? See the trend here? Not good for the economy in the coming years, that's for sure.

And I suspect, in a long-running economic decline, capitalism will NOT be your friend, far from it, as it feeds upon itself and everything around it in a desperate bid to survive.

For those of you who support the libertarian ideal, with little or no government (and the taxes that go along with it), and letting everyone "do their own thing", I think that's all fine and dandy, about 200 years ago, when anyone could stake out some land and create a farm. Can't really do that in today's urbanized society. The idea of cutting off people's support systems (Social Security, SSI, unemployment, etc) in order to support such an ideal, is dare I say, a bit impractical?

If I could do one thing to "fix" our system, I'd try to divorce government from the corporations, and greatly restrict the power that corporations have (like denying them the status of a person). Then perhaps we could get an open, competitive capitalistic system to function, policed by the people's own sense of morality and ethics. But sad to say, I think we're far too gone to even think of doing such a thing.

Anyhow, thanks to all of you for making thought-provoking and insightful posts in my thread. Wish I had the time to reply to individual posts, but I certainly enjoy reading them.
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Old 03-29-2010, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Homeless
1,203 posts, read 1,743,395 times
Reputation: 511
Capitalism and Morality.
Of course they can coexist.
Two invented systems of human behavior validated because some people fully support them.

Being that they are invented, they can also be changed in conjunction in order to fit more smoothly together.
The issue is that mixing them would probably lower the benefits some gain from capitalism.
And being that in this world, money and resources are power, some of those who do well in a capitalist system are loath to hinder their earnings with moral concepts.
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Old 03-29-2010, 06:37 PM
 
152 posts, read 93,127 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
If not for mankind, for whom DID the Soviets develop space flight?
And then the capitalists followed and duplicated what the Soviets did, but we did it to benefit stockholders of Raytheon and General Dynamics and Lockheed, not all of mankind.

The thing you hate about communism is the fact that what they do is to benefit ALL the people equally and collectively, which is a principle you think is evil. And then when they do succeed, you bitterly denounce them of NOT wanting to do what you hate.

Please stand back and look at how you contradict yourself.
You play silly word games and think it is intellectualism. The world has benefited by America's space program in many ways. GPS, Satelite comms, including voice, data and TV - in thousands of way, Mankind has benefited.

One has be as dense as a brick not to see any of this.

I agree with your that communists benefit all people equally, and that amount that they equally benefit everybody by is ZZZEEEERRRROOOOO (except for the untold millions of people they have murdered). You should join them.

The only problem you have is that you are a communist.

In the land of commies, they stand in line for scraps of meat or bread, or, in Korea, tree bark. Please go join them.

MahiAhiOno (proud to despise, hate and be disgusted by Communists, socialist and other such PPPIIIIIGGGGSSSS.
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Old 03-29-2010, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,346,398 times
Reputation: 36094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahiahiono View Post

In the land of commies, they stand in line for scraps of meat or bread, or, in Korea, tree bark. .
Show me the list of communist countries you have visited, where you have seen this. This is not a word game. Show me the list. If you say "I know this to be a fact" and you don't, that's a word game.

Meanwhile, I'll start my list of capitalist countries where Ive seen hungry people begging for food, or going to volunteer soup kitchens, or even (gulp) receiving food stamps or surplus commodities from the government:

1. United States of America.

Last edited by jtur88; 03-29-2010 at 07:06 PM..
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Old 03-29-2010, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic east coast
5,372 posts, read 9,876,032 times
Reputation: 10243
If capitalism promotes profits above all, at any price, including pollution and exploitation, I don't see how it could be moral.
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