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Old 04-18-2012, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Chicago
1,312 posts, read 1,582,958 times
Reputation: 1487

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[quote=hilgi;13314632]Everything you complain about is brought about by government getting involved with and in business.

If we go your way with a forced socialism it will be the same elitistís class in charge of the system, how will it be any different?

[color=black]


And this is why we have elections.

People do not have to vote.

Plain and simple.



If 2 million people vote for the Presidency, can the person that wins say they have the right to preside over the country when 300+ million people didn't???


The Second Amendment wouldn't allow it.




If all the American people are faced with is a pile of garbage and a different colored pile of garbage (borrowing from South Park), WE HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO VOTE. Regardless of our party (sports) affiliations.

The masses will always win. Always. But the masses just need to come together to become an unstoppable force. That is the key to victory.

So long as people root for the Bears or the Packers... or the AFC, or the NFC... Or the NHL or the NBA, we will always be divided.


We need to root for Sports, and the ideals that sports envision to succeed (In this political/economic debate).


Fairness, Integrity, and Rules that everyone follows no matter their position on the Pyramid of power.
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Old 04-21-2012, 04:09 AM
 
1,091 posts, read 1,784,061 times
Reputation: 1538
I find Conservative, Republican politicians who talk up how religious they are hard to listen to - On one level they talk about how religious they are - but on another level are quite happy to oppose welfare, give tax cuts to the wealthy - Hardly doing gods work, hardly spreading christian values eh? giving a millionaire another tax cut, while at the same opposing a minimum wage? Kicking people off welfare, while at the same time extending bailout to banks, so they can pay their CEOs their big salaries - I wonder what Jesus would think of the republican party now?

For Example in the War in Iraq - We had G.W Bush and Tony Blair running around how about their men of god, christians etc, and trying to describe the war in Iraq as some sort of moral war - when in reality it was for various reasons.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,492 posts, read 51,392,857 times
Reputation: 24613
I hope this is not too short an answer.

Capitalism as an economic system is not moral or immoral. It is amoral. It is a system of creating wealth through investment in an open and free market. That is all it is.

The businessmen that operate in the system are people that can be morally good or immorally bad. The good ones are the people that operate within the market system to make money by creating wealth through risky investment. Sometimes these endeavors make a profit and sometimes they take a loss. Look at the Lloyds of London for example. This is a partnership where the owners put their entire fortunes on the line in the event of a really bad year. Most of the time they make a profit. The year of the four Florida hurricanes they did not and had to make settlements out of their own pockets. These people are CAPITALIST businessmen.

The bad businessmen use all manner of ways to eliminate the risk of an open market and guarantee their profit without creating wealth. They collude with other businessmen to share a market and exclude all others. The arrange monopolies by petitioning governments for special protection. They cheat everyone, sometimes including their own investors, by careful manipulation instead of open investment.

What these businessmen have created is not Capitalism but a criminal conspiracy. Unfortunately, in the case of the people that manipulated the mortgage speculation, they were too powerful to either let their bubble collapse and take the losses or be brought up on charges of fraud and racketeering. They and their system were and are immoral.
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
2,663 posts, read 4,541,981 times
Reputation: 3043
I don't know if capitalism and morality can coexist - I suspect not. If they did coexist, there would be little or no need for government regulations as 9 times out of 10, companies and individuals would do the right thing.

As a previous poster said, money is indeed the root of all evil and our collective lusting for money continues to gnaw away at the human race like an incurable cancer.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:37 PM
 
15,043 posts, read 13,637,675 times
Reputation: 6921
Capitalism is a system that's based on acceptance of human's flaws. It comes from presumption that humans are weak and prone to temptations. It's greed and selfishness that moves them and as long as greed can be more or less contained ( that's how modern capitalist societies operate ( or rather USED to operate)) in modern times, they can keep on running on check and balance between the power of money and altruistic ideas.
Can capitalism be moral? If something that's based on human flaw can be moral, you tell me.
Can capitalists on another hand be moral? Yes, because being born into the system, they have choices to make that correspond to their personal beliefs.
Now communism on another hand ( as strange as it sounds) discard the inherent flaws of human nature. It believes that humans will act according to their best traits and abilities, given the opportunity and just organization of the society.
So is communism more moral than capitalism? The answer I suppose is yes.
Can communists on another hand be immoral? The answer again is yes, because hitching up to a great idea does not make one a decent person.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:53 PM
 
6,066 posts, read 10,849,911 times
Reputation: 3063
Capitalism and morality can coexist together with harmony and balance, even if it takes some effort, regulation, and reform.

Any economic system in any country can be altered and used for beneficial good or for destructive bad.

Just because capitalism can sometimes be expressed in a destructive/immoral/and bad way does not mean it is always bad or something to avoid. Plenty of times Capitalism can be expressed much more positively than that.

What are the alternatives to Capitalism that is more likely to be better?

Socialism and Communism as some alternatives is equally as likely to be expressed in a good or bad way as Capitalism.

However, Capitalism does appear to revolve around having a wealthy upper class, middle class, and low-income class simultaneously.

Socialism and Communism seems like it wants everyone to be middle class with equal income, and tries to discourage and prevent both a wealthy upper class and a low income class. However, that seems even more difficult to enforce than Capitalism. Historically, even with a Socialist and Communist government there still ended up being plenty of economically disadvantaged and deprived people.

Also, there is still usually less government intervention in a Capitalist system compared to a Socialist or Communist system, which means people not working in government may have more freedom for themselves economically.

What is happening in the USA is definitely not the same for what is happening in other countries that have a Capitalist system.

Countries such as Netherlands, Switzerland, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, France, UK, Canada, and Australia for some examples appear to express Capitalism much more positively with less negative in the way compared to the USA.

Even with negative flaws sometimes happening in the economy for the USA, there is still plenty of positive, beneficial, and thriving aspects of the USA economy.

Last edited by Thepastpresentandfuture; 05-06-2012 at 01:27 PM..
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Old 05-13-2012, 09:42 AM
 
706 posts, read 1,808,816 times
Reputation: 885
The short cut to the crux of the thing is that Extremism and Morality cannot co-exist.

When Capitalism is your enforced extremist position, brutally crushing the slightest hint of any tenet that strays from capitalism, then you are odds with morality. The same goes for whatever is the opposite of capitalism.
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Old 05-13-2012, 06:04 PM
 
157 posts, read 169,366 times
Reputation: 174
An ideal society has been reported in many a book, movie, song, slogan and child's fable. It is called Fiction. Great are those who dwell within those sacred borders, scary are those who leave imprinted by the depiction as ultimate reality to be implemented due to the seeming reality of a thing that makes it all seem better.



The context of all this is our not-so-modern rush to be what we are informed who it is we must be. Some people are good at macrame, others at forming wealth. The fuss comes about when too many believe they need more or want more than they have. Usually romantic, it involves dramatic notions of equality and how that is defined, impersonally through greed or personally through actual need perhaps. Today, most people want HD-capable surround sound pixellated candylands because it is so pretty not because they desire it with any thought. I type that without deference to any political affiliation or joyous pogrom. Yet, remember we act on a global scale now and outrageous altars to Mammon have never been so fecund.



The question is really centered around morals. What are they? A religious set of tenets for good behaviour, a belief in right and wrong based on perceived suffering or indignation that what is propagandized should belong to everyone, everywhere nevertheless individuality? (Yes, nonetheless individuality!) What would people be if they all had the same opportunities alike without deviation? Globalized? Socialist? Capitalist? Are people feeling raped by the usual ways of the economic world? Why all the need for labels? Greedy definitions of superiority from concrete to abstract we can all agree to fret about and so carry on in the morning.



I have found in my perusings that humans can adapt to many a different situations. Unlike most, I realize there's no insurance that guarantees anything about supposed equality when it comes to life and those alive, in fact most people completely mis-read those lines in the Declaration of Independence about everyone being created equal. One should never confuse fair semantics with querulous pedantry.



Now really, Michael Moore? Himself of gargantuan proportions displaying profound gluttony? His vulgar slobbishness should be an instant clue to anyone media savvy today. Lest you forget that he himself must adore capitalism the same way Al Gore likes to inform us that his cottage-industry roof has caught fire from the elevated temperatures caused by evil humans that don't wave his hot-house banner? Everyone knows that any highly-developed nation today must have an informed educated class and that those folks are just as liable to fall under sway to those who have dire predictions and fatalistic visions of what will come "if we don't", their reasoning is just more complex due to so much text memorization, that's all. And you can't erase 7 billion people all in competition for equality, either.


To compare Socialism and Communism and Capitalism or Corporatism ad infinitum is dandy. Yet individuals will still exist, rising to whatever is considered the top or not and all those concepts plus so many others simply have different ways of governance that will be hated or loved by those governed. There is no magic wand that will dissipate disparity and create joyful comfort for all. That was tried and that is how we got the foreclosure crisis, unfailable banks and grossly disproportionate benefit packages that will soon lead to further angst amongst the guilded retirees and those who somehow must pay for them. Greed is eternal, morality a complaint lobbed at it. I know of an official $16 trillion that have been waged upon this battleground.


Time will tell but you can bet Wal-Mart will still be here in some form or other. What difference other than preference if one goes to a stocked grocer on a meagre budget or to a crowded commissary with a line out the door for blocks to grab whatever is hopefully on the shelf.
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