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Old 08-22-2010, 04:26 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,851 posts, read 10,519,239 times
Reputation: 9513

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Check out the electric rates in Canada. They are mostly very cheap. Almost all of the electric utility buisness here is owned by the people. {Crown Corporations} If you as an independent businessman desire to go into the power business you can but you will have to compete with the crown corp. who has been in the business for over 100 years and is very good at producing power at the lowest cost possible.
I'm no fan of big corporations. But I'm even less a fan of big government.

That original response of mine was referring to the stab at the concept of "monopoly" that in the very next breath began promoting a government monopoly. That make absolutely no logical sense to me at all.

Besides, in my opinion the word "government" and the word "efficiency" are polar opposites. I've yet to see a government social program, at least in my lifetime, that wasn't and hasn't been a joke, and which could not have been handled far more cost-effectively and efficiently by we the people (a mutual or non-profit corporation) or by a private company, than by government (and yes, I am saying "the government" and "the people" are not even close to being in a healthy symbiotic relationship. They are on different planets).

Just as in nature, parasites tend to become lazy and complacent because they do not have to work for their rewards. Their rewards are virtually guaranteed as long as their host complacently allows the parasitism to continue. A leach doesn't care if half the blood it's sucking runs down your leg--it's not working to produce that blood, so why should it care how much is wasted as long as it gets its share? In this particular case, what may have started out as a symbiotic relationship between government and subjects has turned into an outright feeding frenzy on the part of the parasite (government)--it's sucking more than the host has to offer. And given its dysfunctional track record, turning over yet another segment of the economy (utilities) to it is not showing much in the way of IQ.
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Old 08-22-2010, 05:37 PM
 
39,178 posts, read 40,553,882 times
Reputation: 16064
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
those over 1000 KWH should be paying a very high rate because there is no need for anyone to use that kind of electricity.
Says you, someone here in the North with electric heat could easily exceed that. I've also provided two example of being productive with it, if someone is working at their home using a lot of electric but in turn is actually saving energy because they are not doing the commute or working out of some energy sucking building you're going to penalize them?
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,524,080 times
Reputation: 8908
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
I'm no fan of big corporations. But I'm even less a fan of big government.

That original response of mine was referring to the stab at the concept of "monopoly" that in the very next breath began promoting a government monopoly. That make absolutely no logical sense to me at all.

Besides, in my opinion the word "government" and the word "efficiency" are polar opposites. I've yet to see a government social program, at least in my lifetime, that wasn't and hasn't been a joke, and which could not have been handled far more cost-effectively and efficiently by we the people (a mutual or non-profit corporation) or by a private company, than by government (and yes, I am saying "the government" and "the people" are not even close to being in a healthy symbiotic relationship. They are on different planets).

Just as in nature, parasites tend to become lazy and complacent because they do not have to work for their rewards. Their rewards are virtually guaranteed as long as their host complacently allows the parasitism to continue. A leach doesn't care if half the blood it's sucking runs down your leg--it's not working to produce that blood, so why should it care how much is wasted as long as it gets its share? In this particular case, what may have started out as a symbiotic relationship between government and subjects has turned into an outright feeding frenzy on the part of the parasite (government)--it's sucking more than the host has to offer. And given its dysfunctional track record, turning over yet another segment of the economy (utilities) to it is not showing much in the way of IQ.
You have blinders on because you only see things through the eyes of an American. Let me tell you how crown Corporations work and then you might have a different perspective on things.

First of all crown corporations are not run differently than regular corporations. They are as separate from the government as they can get. It seems like a socialist idea but in reality the reason for them in the first place was to prevent vital sectors of the economy from falling into and under American control.

The first really big public investment in a vital area was the building of the transcontinental railroad that was built right after the formation of the country. Without that investment by the government everything west of Manitoba would now be US territory. So much for the history of the need for them. Most of the electric generation and distribution industry in Canada is owned by the people through Crown corps. Now you might think that these entities might be less productive than a private company. That is wrong. For instance, right now Ontario power generation has not had a rate increase for 3 years and they would like to raise rates. They have to apply to the ontario energy board for such a rate increase. The board very well night say no, reduce your costs. find savings somewhere else. You see it becomes a political issue and the ruling government always wants the crown corps to produce the very best of service at the very lowest of prices.

There are many areas of Canada where the telecom, gas, water and sewage, transportation, insurance and other industries are all owned by the people. In Sask for example the private electricty and telephone companies just were not providing an acceptable level of service and their prices were way too high. The government therefore to better serve the people and that's what governments are supposed to do regardless of special intrests, just took over the whole thing lock stock and barrel. Of course they paid the private interests for their assets but otherwise they just told them you are done here.

If it is seen that a private corp could be run better with more economy than a crown then the government has the option of selling that asset. I will tell you this though. In every case that I'm familar with, service declined and prices increased under such a deal.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:25 AM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,851 posts, read 10,519,239 times
Reputation: 9513
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
The government therefore to better serve the people and that's what governments are supposed to do ...
Here in the US, we've forgotten that concept; here, the government serves only itself. Perhaps the government serving the people is working better in Canada--I certainly hope so.



To be fair to the poster that I first responded to on this thread, the idea of a uniform power grid/system, inclusive of the entire nation is not a bad one. We simply have to take the word "government" and the term "for profit corporation" out of the equation. Then we'd be getting somewhere.

As I said before, my opinion is that corporations should not even exist except in the form of a mutual or cooperative (not-for-profit and owned directly by the consumer). That might sound like I'm promoting socialism. I'm not, because the government should have nothing to do with it. Neither should greedy capitalists. This opinion puts me at odds with both statists and capitalists. One solely seeks power; the other solely seeks riches. I seek for "the people" to be subjected to neither. Unfortunately, there is no one willing to think beyond the same rehashed, failed social systems. Over and over and over. How many shades of lipstick can we try on the same pig?
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,574 posts, read 8,490,240 times
Reputation: 5145
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Check out the electric rates in Canada. They are mostly very cheap. Almost all of the electric utility buisness here is owned by the people. {Crown Corporations} If you as an independent businessman desire to go into the power business you can but you will have to compete with the crown corp. who has been in the business for over 100 years and is very good at producing power at the lowest cost possible.
The US gets lots of electricity from Canada already......

International Energy Statistics



here's some cost data....For what it does for you Electricity is cheap.........
Electric Power Annual - Average Retail Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:28 AM
 
9,807 posts, read 13,403,701 times
Reputation: 8158
A different poster on a different forum gave excellent advice.

He stated the way to assess a true cost of your electric bill is to divide the final bill by the kwh used.

I can assure you after my provider adds fees and taxes in, my total kwh rate is much higher than any of their posted rates.

I did it on my last bill.

Despite rate charts showing rates from 4 cents to 8 cents ( based on useage) my final bill was 10.6 cents after I factored in taxes and fees.
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,524,080 times
Reputation: 8908
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Here in the US, we've forgotten that concept; here, the government serves only itself. Perhaps the government serving the people is working better in Canada--I certainly hope so.



To be fair to the poster that I first responded to on this thread, the idea of a uniform power grid/system, inclusive of the entire nation is not a bad one. We simply have to take the word "government" and the term "for profit corporation" out of the equation. Then we'd be getting somewhere.

As I said before, my opinion is that corporations should not even exist except in the form of a mutual or cooperative (not-for-profit and owned directly by the consumer). That might sound like I'm promoting socialism. I'm not, because the government should have nothing to do with it. Neither should greedy capitalists. This opinion puts me at odds with both statists and capitalists. One solely seeks power; the other solely seeks riches. I seek for "the people" to be subjected to neither. Unfortunately, there is no one willing to think beyond the same rehashed, failed social systems. Over and over and over. How many shades of lipstick can we try on the same pig?
When you get to North Dakota you should just keep goin north to Saskatchewan. The way you describe what you like well that's the way Sask. is.
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:59 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,851 posts, read 10,519,239 times
Reputation: 9513
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
When you get to North Dakota you should just keep goin north to Saskatchewan. The way you describe what you like well that's the way Sask. is.
Well... it's food for thought.
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:00 AM
 
34,232 posts, read 41,228,049 times
Reputation: 29687
Decoding these electric bills is somewhat confusing but my last bill for the time period 2010-05-27 to 2010-07-28
was $132 for 63 days or 1680 kwh x $00545..If you are wondering its Montreal and there was no air conditioning being used in a 1200sq/ft house.
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:57 PM
 
2,671 posts, read 2,794,016 times
Reputation: 1987
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
I think it is time to nationalize the entire electric power system and create a nationwide TVA to provide adequate power to the nation using distributed automatic nuclear power plants connected to a highly redundant grid. Typical consumer loads would be sold at cost and heavy industrial loads powered by a local power plant. The result would be a much more reliable electrical system that, by using properly designed power plants would effectively never run out of fuel and be capable of using or storing the energy from green sources.

This will never happen because coal and oil company propaganda has poisoned the public awareness and private monopolies will never allow their money machine to be challenged. Privately owned power companies are absurd unless you are an owner.
I think you're on to something. The new nuclear power plants is something I've studied almost nilch. They do require a huge amount of water is what I've read. And the waste disposal is still a problem I would need to study more.

I agree with you 100% on your last paragraph. More likely, that is the biggest issue with our energy choices, consumption, and climate. Coal and oil companies.
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