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Old 09-21-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,240 posts, read 4,170,437 times
Reputation: 4756

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Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
Have any of you who think sails are feasable ever contacted a shipping company?

I would think they would pay you millions $$$$$$ for your brilliant idea of saving them so much expensive fuel. --sarc
Already done...

SkySails*-*History & Milestones (http://www.skysails.info/english/company/history-milestones/ - broken link)

Oh but it can't possibly be... because cargo ships are too big...
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,729 posts, read 8,634,412 times
Reputation: 3359
But if there were a long-term fuel shortage, making it not only cost-prohibitive but completely resource-prohibitive to take cargo by sea or air... what happens then?

I'm not sure why everyone is getting so defensive about discussing some alternatives to the current technology that may allow us to continue some amount of sea cargo ability if fuel costs and availability becomes even worse of a problem.

Good ideas can come from anyone, and a lot of the times the best inventions are discovered by normal folks just trying to solve a problem... you don't have to be a scientist or professional with a list of credentials a mile long to think about or discuss alternatives.

We know the benefits and drawbacks of the previous iterations, and we know the benefits and drawbacks of the current iterations. We know how things used to work, and we know how they currently work. We know what changes needed to be made or that susbsequently occured when we switched from the old way to the way we do it know. It's not unreasonable to assume that we may have to change some things when we start doing things the future way, and have some challenges to overcome.

A lot of the "limitations" and "justifications" I see in this thread keep tying the implementation to the requirement... and this needn't be so. If you completely ignore the past and current implementation and only list the actual requirements and the actual limitations, you can get a clearer picture of the problem you're trying to solve... then you can go back and check theoretical implementations against data we've collected from previous implementations that were similar.

Discussing a problem and trying to come up with an alternative solution shouldn't be something that brings on this much animosity. Why does conceptual problem-solving suddenly equate to something akin to kicking your dog or stealing from Grandma?
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:37 PM
 
4,919 posts, read 19,853,905 times
Reputation: 6215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Already done...

SkySails*-*History & Milestones (http://www.skysails.info/english/company/history-milestones/ - broken link)

Oh but it can't possibly be... because cargo ships are too big...
Did yo even read their own literature?
No.....

The skysail is a suppliment to ship engines, not a replacement. What did they say, oh yeah only a 10-30% fuel savings. They even said that it will not meet the needs of todays modern container ships except as a fuel saving device, not as a propulsion system. And i guess you over looked the part that said it's temporary and can't be used all the time, so the savings is not all the time when its underway but only when the optimum wind conditions occur.

You still need those massive engines to get the ship away from port and to the shipping lanes where the skysail can be used to reduce (not replace and certanly not eliminate) the use of fuel.
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,729 posts, read 8,634,412 times
Reputation: 3359
You need some sort of powered propulsion system to manuever in port... that doesn't have to be an engine or generator that burns fossil fuel. It could just as easily be renewable energy electric motors (or nuclear, or hydrogen fuel cell or whatever).

So mechanical wind drive may not be feasible as primary propulsion on an ultra-large craft; but it's already proven to be a decent supplemental for a a powered propulsion system. That doesn't have to be an engine or generator that burns fossil fuel either. It could just as easily be renewable energy electric motors.

Requirement = powered propulsion system

not the same as

Implementation = steam engine or diesel engine generator
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,240 posts, read 4,170,437 times
Reputation: 4756
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacificFlights View Post
Did yo even read their own literature?
No.....

The skysail is a suppliment to ship engines, not a replacement. What did they say, oh yeah only a 10-30% fuel savings. They even said that it will not meet the needs of todays modern container ships except as a fuel saving device, not as a propulsion system. And i guess you over looked the part that said it's temporary and can't be used all the time, so the savings is not all the time when its underway but only when the optimum wind conditions occur.

You still need those massive engines to get the ship away from port and to the shipping lanes where the skysail can be used to reduce (not replace and certanly not eliminate) the use of fuel.
Did you even read my last reply to you...?

No?

Go read the highlighted section (it looks like this) I though that would have been a dead giveaway, apparently I was mistaken. Let me just repeat it just in case you or anyone else following this thread missed it...

One more time with feeling...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
<snip>If I were talking about the sails on, for instance, a Ship O' the Line, you may have a point, but I'm not. For instance Turbosails need no extra personnel, none, not one, they're fully automated and computer controlled, indeed they've been shown provide between 3.5 to 4 times the force of an equivalent Bermuda rig. However I'm not even discussing not having a power plant.
<snip>
As I mentioned earlier, I'm not talking about eliminating the power plant, so any rough weather sailing and maneuvering could be performed as usual with rudders, and bow/stern (or azimuth) thrusters. Just that primary thrust would be reduced by alternative means.
Do you agree that to move any body you need a force to overcome the body's inertia and any friction?

If you do not stop here. Please refer to Newtons first law of motion.

Do you think that that body cares how that force is generated? Will the body refuse if it receives a pull of 1.6 Million Newtons, but not if it receives the same force as a push from a prop?

If you do, then please explain.

If you still think that massive engines (steam or diesel) with a prop are the ONLY way to move a large (cargo carrier sized) buoyant body, then could you please explain your logic.
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