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Ok, I hear people bragging about their solar panels and how their meter spins backwards. Also people like to brag about the energy company buying back their excess power.
I would say bravo, with a few caveats:
1. The price you paid for your system was at a premium (even with the Big Brother contribution), you are an early adopter, that is costly.
2. When the power company buys your excess....it is probably at a very low reimbursement rate.
3. You probably did not get an "off Line" system where you run fully on the solar panel juice......and the excess is used to charge your uninterruptible power supply (battery bank). When your solar panels charge your battery backup, that is a much better "reimbursement" than the power company will ever give you.
So who out there has an OFF GRID system that has full "off line" capabilities, could you describe your setup and costs?????
2. When the power company buys your excess....it is probably at a very low reimbursement rate.
You might actually be able to sell that a premium price, if you're in my state you don't even have to sell them the electric because you get renewable energy credits.
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the numbers from the solar installer but a member of my forum got a quote, from that estimate minus the government credits he calcualted 6 years for payback and he would begin to makemoney on it.
The estimate was for $65K up front for installation, I believe this includes battery backup. There is no net metering in my state that I'm aware of so he can't sell it back to the power company.
The feds and the state were going to give give him almost half the installation costs in tax credits.
The big money comes from the "renewable energy credits" also called "green credits" which are sold like a commodity. Power distibutors under mandates in most states to provide X amount of energy through renewable resources. If these mandates cannot be met they have to purchase these credits, the cost for these credits are of course passed onto the consumers in their electric bill. The solar installer gave him an estimate of $4K per year for these credits.
LOL um my shed is "off the grid." I have solar lights on the shed. My main issue is with the "battery." My major push for solar is not to save money (things aren't bad enough yet) but to be kinder to poor mother earth, as well.
Trading electric plants for batteries full of strong acids just seems horrible to me. I guess they could recycle them, but I'm not aware of a recycling program for large batteries.
But I SOOO agree with the 'early adopter' quote. Solar cells aren't complicated it seems to manufacture, and I see the price for a pretty decent setup on amazon (can maybe power a heater or radio in winter) for under $600 with the panel and outlet. That's not bad.
In my state, I think having a solar panel or grid to run my AC during the day in the summer would be a good idea. I wouldn't need a battery backup, because I can live without AC at night. I'm just not sure yet now to do the installation...
and I see the price for a pretty decent setup on amazon (can maybe power a heater or radio in winter) for under $600 with the panel and outlet. That's not bad...
Here's one for $499, it's 80 watts. Doesn't include battery charging controller , inverter or batteries. You would need all three of these things to utilize it for most applications.
Small electric heaters are usually 1000 to 1500 watts so that is out of the question*. The 80 watts is max rating, this would require ideal conditions like direct sunlight. Let's say for 24/7 it could do 50% or 40 watts, 40 watts is being very generous.
Using conventional electric a 40 watt light bulb burning 24/7/365:
40watts * 8,760(hours in the year) = 350,400 watt hours
Divide by 1000 to get kilowatt hours:
350,400 / 1000 = 350.4kWh
Multiply the kilowatt hours by your electric rate, if it's 10 cents/kWh which is national average:
350.4 * .10 = $35.40 to run a 40 watt light bulb 24/7/365 at 10 cents a kWh.
It would take 15 years before you saw any payback on this system and that is without considering the additional costs of the charge controller, inverter and batteries. In addition to that PV cells slowly degrade over time and become less effective, the lifespan is usually about 25 years. Finally as I said I think the 40 watts is very generous.
As a practical matter such a system is suitable for remote areas where you can't get electric and have a need for just a little electric.
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*About 2 years ago I did some calculations for solar sytem that would be capable of heating a 2000 sq. ft. home in Northeastern Pennsylvania. The cost was somewhere around $250K just for the panels.
Here's one for $499, it's 80 watts. Doesn't include battery charging controller , inverter or batteries. You would need all three of these things to utilize it for most applications.
Small electric heaters are usually 1000 to 1500 watts so that is out of the question*. The 80 watts is max rating, this would require ideal conditions like direct sunlight. Let's say for 24/7 it could do 50% or 40 watts, 40 watts is being very generous.
Using conventional electric a 40 watt light bulb burning 24/7/365:
40watts * 8,760(hours in the year) = 350,400 watt hours
Divide by 1000 to get kilowatt hours:
350,400 / 1000 = 350.4kWh
Multiply the kilowatt hours by your electric rate, if it's 10 cents/kWh which is national average:
350.4 * .10 = $35.40 to run a 40 watt light bulb 24/7/365 at 10 cents a kWh.
It would take 15 years before you saw any payback on this system and that is without considering the additional costs of the charge controller, inverter and batteries. In addition to that PV cells slowly degrade over time and become less effective, the lifespan is usually about 25 years. Finally as I said I think the 40 watts is very generous.
As a practical matter such a system is suitable for remote areas where you can't get electric and have a need for just a little electric.
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*About 2 years ago I did some calculations for solar sytem that would be capable of heating a 2000 sq. ft. home in Northeastern Pennsylvania. The cost was somewhere around $250K just for the panels.
Sheesh! are you looking for the most expensive retailer...?
That's nearly over 2.5 times the output of your example and $81 less and change, from one of the industry leaders.
Now payback wise, here's another thing, like I've said before, cost of running grid power to my location $116,500 to get power at a rate of $0.11/kWh (source Chugach Electric)
Cost of installing 2.1kW of Kyocera panels (10) $4179.
Solar charge controller (60V Xantrex MPPT ) $632
Batteries 6 Deka Solar 8A8DLTP-DEKA (245Ah AGM) $448 each total $2688
Inverter 2500W (Outback off grid GTFX2524 true sine wave) $1762
Cabling and other sundries $1000
Total... $10,261
Throw in a couple of small generators $2000
So payback is $104,500 immediately. It's extensible (you need to add 5 panels per extension on the solar, and additional batteries in blocks of 2, or an additional inverter or two for increased power). It'll accept a wind generator without any real modification. It'll support a max draw of 2500W (which might not seem like a lot, but you'd be surprised, and supply it assuming you have good batteries for 7 hours) Add a second inverter and it'll supply 5000W. If I get the system reviewed and metered I also qualify for Renewable Energy Credits that I can sell to Chugach.
However it does require some adaptation on your power usage, my average power consumption is about 150W (like right now, I have my laptop on its charger, network router, satellite modem and media NAS running) and a load of 25W for the inverter so 175W total average power consumption, that battery array will drain from full in about a week for me assuming that there's no charging happening.
However I do question the whole idea of heating a home with Solar PV. You'd be far better using solar collectors they run at about 14 BTU/$ (using standard commercial Solar Collectors), which in my case would be a little on the high side ($9k) but I live in AK where my daily heating can run up to 129k BTU/day (5.375k BTU/hr) and I can get that far easier from a $2500 high efficiency wood stove. However this is with a super insulated home (R60 roof and floor, and R40 walls).
Living in S Florida should have a ton of benefits when talking about converting sun to electricity. It does but I need over almost 250k and my payback to use total solar products would be 15.5 years.
There are a lot of companies that provide solar panels but the warranties really stink. 20 year warranty to retrieve just 5 years of equity seems poor to me. I use to live in SW Pennsyvania and just 8 years ago technology was no where like it is today. Also there is a company that produces a panel that is flexible enough to turn a 90 degree corner but it is only available to commercial users.
I have a solar pool heater and solar hot water heater. Total cost for the 2 was 10k and I was given a 33% total rebate from the state and federal govt..... The govt rebate took over a year for us to receive. "The rebate program in Florida started n 2006. The four-year program was designed to encourage residents and businesses to invest in solar energy technologies by providing rebates for purchase and installation of solar energy systems in homes and businesses". http://www.myfloridaclimate.com/clim...rebate_program
S florida rebates are not guaranteed because the state runs out of money very quickly each year and the state rebates are voted on the following year....
Some rich Floridians have attempted to install complete roof solar panels and strong winds includng hurricanes have taken a few of them down and out of commission. Also, it is extremely expensive.. Our town govt just had a civic center built and the entire roof system comprises of solar panels. Still not enough to run the center at 100% solar. I believe FPL charges
Our home energy costs averages $325/ month and we have a 2,800 SF home under air.. FPL site says a Florida resident averages $124. No one I know of has a bill as low as $124. Our heat is seldom used but comes from our A/C unit. We would love to remove a good portion of that electric cost but the $200k initial cost is out of our reach.....
So who out there has an OFF GRID system that has full "off line" capabilities, could you describe your setup and costs?????
My husband and I built our off grid home 3 years ago. It would have cost us over $20,000 to get electric to our house so we decided to try going off grid. For us it is an ongoing experience since my husband designed our system and we have never done this before. We started with mostly propane appliances. We have since changed from a propane fireplace for heat to a back up propane wall heater and a wood stove. This week we will be getting a new "electric" refrigerator instead of the propane refrigerator we started with. This will be experimental...we might need more batteries to run the new fridge.
Our system is a 12 volt system. We have twelve 135 watt Kyocera 12 volt panels, two Outback 80 amp charge controllers, one Outback 12 volt inverter, fourteen 6 volt golf cart batteries. and a back up Honda generator which is only used for pumping our well water into an underground storage tank. My husband did the installation. Our system works flawlessly. We use all modern day conveniences except A/C and we don't sacrifice anything.
These are the approximate costs for our system today:
Panels- $360.00 each(our panels cost much more 3 years ago)
Batteries- about $70.00 each
Charge controllers- about $600.00 each
Inverter-about $1875.00
Misc. wires and electrical boxes- about $500.00
Our system now would cost about $9000.00 plus tax.
That is what it would cost now after we made all of our modifications. It was a big learning experience for my husband and I.
Living in S Florida should have a ton of benefits when talking about converting sun to electricity. It does but I need over almost 250k and my payback to use total solar products would be 15.5 years.
Firstly if you went solar at $250k based on your average bill ($325 from below) it would take 64 years 3 months to pay it off, unless you're getting net metering and payment for any energy pushed into the grid. What are the specs for this system, I'd like to know because I think someone is taking you for a ride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergy1
There are a lot of companies that provide solar panels but the warranties really stink. 20 year warranty to retrieve just 5 years of equity seems poor to me.
not sure I understand if you're complaining about getting a 20 year warranty, or not, full warranty against all manufacturing defects, then 8 years warranty that the panel will produce over 90% of it's minimum rated value (that's the value of the panel you bought, it could produce more than that value), then 10 more years that the panel will produce over 80% of it's minimum rated value. Kyocera will fix or replace as needed if these issues arise. Seems pretty good to me, name me any other manufacturer who provides a 20 year warranty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergy1
I have a solar pool heater and solar hot water heater. Total cost for the 2 was 10k and I was given a 33% total rebate from the state and federal govt..... <snip>
</snip>
Our home energy costs averages $325/ month and we have a 2,800 SF home under air.. FPL site says a Florida resident averages $124. No one I know of has a bill as low as $124. Our heat is seldom used but comes from our A/C unit. We would love to remove a good portion of that electric cost but the $200k initial cost is out of our reach.....
Assuming that you're using FPL for your power (since you mentioned it), using their rate of 10.69 cents per kilowatt hour (which is pretty outrageous), your average monthly bill amounts to an AVERAGE energy usage of 4.1kW, which to be quite frank is pretty impressive (in a bad way).
So assuming we use my system as a prototype, lets for the sake of argument double everything (4.2kW of panels), so we're now at $20,322, just for sh*ts and giggles lets add another 2.1kW to the panels, and another 6 batteries, for a total of $27189, that's not a quarter million, it's just over a tenth...
You'd pay that back at the rate you're using in 83 months... or just under 7 years. However if you get a 33% rebate you'd pay it back in 4 years and 9 months.
Now if I were you I'd be seriously looking at improving my insulation if most of that power is being spent on HVAC, insulation works to keep heat in, or out. 4.1kWh (since it's an average use of 4.1kW) is 13989 BTU/hr or AVERAGE of 335,736 BTU/day. I live in Alaska, my place is maintained at 72F, my outside temperatures can be as low as -70F, my PEAK heating energy use is 129,000 BTU/day, that's under a half of your average. If you maintain the same heating and cooling in the winter you're warming by a maximum of 32 degrees, and in the summer you're cooling by probably a maximum of about 20-25 degrees, it's no where near a 140 degree differential.
Sheesh! are you looking for the most expensive retailer...?
Nope, first one that popped up in my search.
Quote:
Now payback wise, here's another thing, like I've said before, cost of running grid power to my location $116,500 to get power at a rate of $0.11/kWh (source Chugach Electric)
Solar system in this case would absolutely make sesne even if you had to pay full price. Considering the quote my forum member got I'd consider it myself except my location is poor. I'm on the north side of hill surrounded by trees. During the winter the sun barely peaks up over the tops of the trees for a few hours.
Quote:
However I do question the whole idea of heating a home with Solar PV. You'd be far better using solar collectors they run at about 14 BTU/$ (using standard commercial Solar Collectors), which in my case would be a little on the high side ($9k) but I live in AK where my daily heating can run up to 129k BTU/day (5.375k BTU/hr) and I can get that far easier from a $2500 high efficiency wood stove. However this is with a super insulated home (R60 roof and floor, and R40 walls).
I did this just as a "What if..." scenario, I heat with coal and it costs me about $800 a year and that includes domestic hot water so I won't be switching to anything else. I should also note I wasn't including any subsidies but just the actual costs. The panels have dropped since then so it would be cheaper now.
Here's the post, it includes the formulas and references:
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not sure I understand if you're complaining about getting a 20 year warranty, or not, full warranty against all manufacturing defects, then 8 years warranty that the panel will produce over 90% of it's minimum rated value (that's the value of the panel you bought, it could produce more than that value), then 10 more years that the panel will produce over 80% of it's minimum rated value. Kyocera will fix or replace as needed if these issues arise. Seems pretty good to me, name me any other manufacturer who provides a 20 year warranty.
I should also note I wasn't including any subsidies but just the actual costs. The panels have dropped since then so it would be cheaper now. 
