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Old 05-07-2011, 02:36 PM
 
Location: DC
6,506 posts, read 6,426,164 times
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Diesel fuel sells at a premium to gasoline and has about 15% more energy per gallon so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Running out of coal isn't the issue. We didn't transition to the bronze age because we ran out of stones.
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Old 05-07-2011, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Destrehan, Louisiana
2,192 posts, read 6,207,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Rather than Calling the Website "This is Money," maybe they should try "This is All Rather Daffy."

The Prius was designed to be a Cleaner Air car -- not a fuel sipper. Back when the Prius was designed and released, few cared about mileage, as gas was relatively cheap. It burns less gasoline, so that it will put less pollution in the air. Toyota did that so they could build more of the high profit Road Hog SUVs.

IF you wanted a REALLY better fuel mileage Prius, they need to put a larger electric motor, larger battery pack, and a wall plug . . . . and then it could run without Oil/Gas . . . . and would be -- a Chevy Volt.


If you think the answer to environmental pollution is to incorporate more acid batteries then you haven't done your homework at all. Sometimes the answer to a problem causes a lager problem and I think this is one of them.


busta
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:44 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,827,766 times
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Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
They have been building a lot of natural gas facilities, coal plant construction has been on hold for a variety of reasons including concerns over cap and trade policy. That trend is being reversed, as of late 2010:
Not talking capacity -- or possible production. Talking what is actually produced by what source. Electricity production from Coal is down. The trendlnes are down.

The additional Coal plants have been under construction for some years. I did plans reviews of some on the list. The construction began when Natural Gas was much more expensive than now. Not only does it cost more to build a Coal plant, once built there are additional fuel and maintenance costs to operate it.

Coal used to be the cheapest, but is now slipping from that spot. In some cases there is so much surplus wind based electricity produced that it is free. Coal cannot compete with free. Solar Thermal is also heading in to the realm of cheaper than Coal.

In the long run Coal will likely be limited to deep night minor backup and base load.
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:52 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,827,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustaduke View Post
If you think the answer to environmental pollution is to incorporate more acid batteries then you haven't done your homework at all. Sometimes the answer to a problem causes a lager problem and I think this is one of them.


busta
Speaking of homework, and maybe reading comprehension, no one said anything about acid batteries, did they?

Sounds like your own strawman?

But does not EVERY truck and car on the road today have them for starting the engine, already?

Here is some of the more present thinking >>>

Electrified roads to charge your electric car on the highway

Such a system could be done with little to no batteries, at all.
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:30 PM
 
39,190 posts, read 40,571,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Coal used to be the cheapest, but is now slipping from that spot. In some cases there is so much surplus wind based electricity produced that it is free. Coal cannot compete with free. Solar Thermal is also heading in to the realm of cheaper than Coal.
LOL, not even close. There is nothing free about wind. Let's look at the big wind farm they have planned for Massachusetts. They signed a 15 year contract with the power distributor starting at 22 cents a kWh wholesale. With a 3.5% increase each year in 15 years that power is going to be 32 cents a kWh. We have not even got into the subsidies....

Power from a coal plant comes in around 4 to 5 cents wholesale, this is all costs inclusive. If you put up a wind/solar facility the government is going to give you a 2 cent a kWh tax break or nearly half of what it cost to produce from coal.

That 22 cents wholesale is double the average US retail cost for residential and about 50% higher than the 14.8 cents Mass. residents paid in January.

Take a look at Denmark, they have the highest percentage of electricity generated by wind in the world. They are also the largest manufacturer of windmills........ They also have the highest electric rates in Europe, about 42 cents kWh.

These are the numbers, they don't lie.

Last edited by thecoalman; 05-07-2011 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:39 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,827,766 times
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Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
You're really good at citing diesel emissions concerns from about the 1985 era.

The fact is that current USA diesel emissions are cleaner than gasoline motors with all the latest technology and low-sulfur diesel fuel. Further, recent tests of bio-diesel emissions show them to be even cleaner than petroleum base refined diesel fuel ... although the mpg is lesser on bio-diesel. Similarly, tests on Jet A bio-fuels show cleaner emissions in aviation use.
hmmm, sometimes I wonder why I bother. Let's see . . . Low Sulfur would reduce . . . . hmmm, think, think, think . . . . maybe SOx? Maybe?

Did not even have Sulfur issues on the list, did I? Talking about particulates and NOx. But you could add CO, CO2 to the mix. Had them all in 1985 and still do now.

To say that Diesel is better than Gasoline is about like saying one would rather be beaten with hose than a bat. They both suck.

Quote:

It's not necessarily automatic that a car burning "less gasoline" creates fewer emissions, per your comments re the Prius. I've owned and worked on quite a few cars that got excellent fuel economy all the way back to the 1960's that most certainly would not meet current emissions specs ... many of those cars delivered 30-40 mpg on gasoline. In the late 1970's, we saw diesel cars that delivered fuel economy of high 30's to around 50 mpg (VW, Audi, Peugeot, MB, just to cite a few).
ss, the Prius was designed as a low air pollution car. Not a high mileage car. You really can not not comprehend that? It burns less fuel as the gas motor shuts off a low speeds and when stopped. Engine off = clean air and zero air pollution, as well as better mileage.

Quote:
While a fair number of new coal fired power plants have recently been cancelled due to political uncertainty/economics of the current administration, I believe that it's quite likely ... contrary to your assertion that coal use will be reduced ... that coal will be the mainstay base power generation in the USA for many decades to come. It's cheap, it's available, and with latest emissions controls/scrubbers ... it's clean, reliable, and it doesn't have major adverse consequences seen in nuclear energy. It's uptime is almost 100% ... which cannot be matched by localized solar production, nor for that matter, wind energy.

Do you really not get the numbers end of this? There is SO MUCH surplus baseload power already there is no demand for any more? This gets back to that Time Of Use stuff we have discussed before. You really do not understand that? There is no need for any more deep night power generation.

We real humans in the real world tend to use most power in the middle of the day, when we are up doing stuff. Is that so hard to get? And that middle of the day is when Solar produces. Houda figgered?


Quote:
As I live in an area that has some of the highest average wind energy densities in the USA, and see that the uptime is only in the low 20% range ... it's not reliable or capable of delivering power without a base generation support system. In our area, that's coal-fired.
As you know, although I like them, I have never accused your locals of being the sharpest knives in the drawer. About the same as Texas, in that regard.


Quote:

Your comments re running an electric motor being so clean ignores where the electricity comes from. Even if your source is totally solar, you've got to have the room to install the panels to generate the power. You're not going to do that at night, and you're not going to have enough power to re-charge transportation batteries in a reasonable time frame without a lot of square footage of panels ... far more than you'd have available from your garage roof, for example.
We have done this type math on here before, too. To run a 20 HP motor takes about 2000 square feet. Which is around the size of a typical household roof. However, those panels would produce about 5 hours a day or more. So 20kW X 5 Hours = 100kWh produced per day.

But the motor in the average car only runs about an hour a day. Consuming around 20kW X 1 hour, or 20kWh. This means that house roof sized array is 5 times exceeding the need of the average car. So scaling it down to 1/5 gives us about 400 square feet -- about the size of a typical garage roof. So yes, a garage roof would about do. Handy comparison, there.

So although you have it all wrong, thanks for the apt comparison.

btw, said nothing about batteries.

Quote:
You can talk gloom and doom about the demise of combustion sourced power, but with the renewables from many forms of bio mass, algae, and similar sources ... combustion is going to be around for a long time to come.

Horses still exist, as well. We have 5 in our backyard.

Quote:
FWIW ... we currently have enough proven coal reserves in the USA to be quite independent from foreign energy sources for many decades, although I've seen projections which asssert that to be sufficient to go for well over a century. Just the deposits of coal in Wyoming are enough to last us for quite a few decades.
Now you are confusing "quite independent from foreign energy sources" as if Coal = Oil. It is foreign Oil we are importing -- Not Coal. I guess you know the difference?

Start consuming Coal to do ground transportation instead of Oil and you would see that US Coal disappearing mighty fast.
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:12 AM
 
39,190 posts, read 40,571,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post

Start consuming Coal to do ground transportation instead of Oil and you would see that US Coal disappearing mighty fast.
They can use a lower quality product for liquid fuel conversions. If we were to meet power needs and the current demand for diesel, jet fuel, and kerosene type applications the supply gets cut in half acording to the article I cited before. It's still a substantial amount.

Let's not forget there is oil shale as well, nearly a trillion barrels in the Green River formation alone. Both the coal to liquid fuels and oil shale tech is very economical with the current cost of conventional oil.

Quote:
About Oil Shale

While oil shale is found in many places worldwide, by far the largest deposits in the world are found in the United States in the Green River Formation, which covers portions of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming. Estimates of the oil resource in place within the Green River Formation range from 1.2 to 1.8 trillion barrels. Not all resources in place are recoverable; however, even a moderate estimate of 800 billion barrels of recoverable oil from oil shale in the Green River Formation is three times greater than the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia. Present U.S. demand for petroleum products is about 20 million barrels per day. If oil shale could be used to meet a quarter of that demand, the estimated 800 billion barrels of recoverable oil from the Green River Formation would last for more than 400 years1.
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:32 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,827,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
LOL, not even close. There is nothing free about wind. Let's look at the big wind farm they have planned for Massachusetts. They signed a 15 year contract with the power distributor starting at 22 cents a kWh wholesale. With a 3.5% increase each year in 15 years that power is going to be 32 cents a kWh. We have not even got into the subsidies....

Power from a coal plant comes in around 4 to 5 cents wholesale, this is all costs inclusive. If you put up a wind/solar facility the government is going to give you a 2 cent a kWh tax break or nearly half of what it cost to produce from coal.

That 22 cents wholesale is double the average US retail cost for residential and about 50% higher than the 14.8 cents Mass. residents paid in January.

Take a look at Denmark, they have the highest percentage of electricity generated by wind in the world. They are also the largest manufacturer of windmills........ They also have the highest electric rates in Europe, about 42 cents kWh.

These are the numbers, they don't lie.
You actually have to read the words to have a conversation -- not just your own agenda. I can do numbers. I do them as part of full power plant designs.

What I am saying is there is SO MUCH surplus wind energy, when it goes into surplus, it can go on to the grid for free.

Not a bunch of cash analysis nonsense -- I am talking real world actual real practice in real life numbers.

In West Texas, wind sourced energy has gone so surplus from time-to-time over the past couple of years, that Wind operators have PAID (as in Negative Power Costs) the grid operators just to take the surplus power.

Do you understand that?
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:39 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,827,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
They can use a lower quality product for liquid fuel conversions. If we were to meet power needs and the current demand for diesel, jet fuel, and kerosene type applications the supply gets cut in half acording to the article I cited before. It's still a substantial amount.

Let's not forget there is oil shale as well, nearly a trillion barrels in the Green River formation alone. Both the coal to liquid fuels and oil shale tech is very economical with the current cost of conventional oil.
It is just silly to use that much energy that it takes to do that, just so that we can run out of Coal, just as we have run out of Cheap Oil.

I follow why you would want to do that -- afterall, as the name states -- you are a Coal Man.

Just like a Nuke guy would want more Nukes -- whether dirty, dangerous, or just plain dumb. It is all about ME, ME, ME, get my bucks for ME, now. I have seen enough of that in the real world, that while I do not like to be around it, I understand it.

But in real practice WHY in the world, do you think the Rest of US would want to be tied up into something so shortsighted, greedy, and stupid?
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Old 05-08-2011, 09:55 PM
 
39,190 posts, read 40,571,673 times
Reputation: 16071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post

What I am saying is there is SO MUCH surplus wind energy, when it goes into surplus, it can go on to the grid for free.
It's not free, simple as that. I'm citing real world numbers. If there is a surplus it's another great example of government money running wild.

Last edited by thecoalman; 05-08-2011 at 10:09 PM..
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