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Old 07-15-2011, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,729 posts, read 8,603,184 times
Reputation: 3358

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So back to the OP -- EVs might not be as green as we think.

Getting the thread back on topic, I think we can all agree (regardless of position) that:

1. The total cradle-to-grave impacts of EVs is not known (or not published/discussed)
2. The C2G impacts we know or predict could be more harmful than what is commonly claimed by the industry and media.
3. The costs to generate power for the EVs needs to be included in the analysis
4. The costs to generate power also needs full C2G analysis, which is not published/discussed in direct comparison
5. The costs to generate power is/can be highly dependent on location, resources, application, and system design

So, in conclusion, the possible negative impacts of EVs could be the same or worse than conventional vehicles, depending on the vehicle design and the power generation system that charges it. However, it could also be better for the same reasons. The simple fact is that the complete/true/total C2G costs of all the different vehicles and power plants discussed is unknown, or at least uncollated; therefore, doing any sort of real-world comparisons is hypothetical or partially incomplete.

The answer to the OP is really -- Beware of the Hype, everything could (and usually does) cost more than you've been lead to believe... regardless of which tech or system you're talking about
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,090 posts, read 4,116,327 times
Reputation: 4683
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I'm asking for a real world example? The second plant built in 2010 FYI was using First Solar panels.
Yes, and when was it contracted? The price paid would be the price contracted at that time, thus only plants that are contracted after Dec 2010 would have that pricing, which is why a real world example with that pricing can't be provided.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
What's interesting here is the solar industry is also subject to the law of supply and demand, it saw a tremendous downturn with economic situation which is one of the reasons the cost of the panels have dropped a lot since 2007. What happens when demand increases and we combine that with the scarcity of raw materials?
Really?
World solar photovoltaic (PV) installations
2.826 GWp 2007,
5.95 GWp 2008
7.5 GWp 2009
18.2 GWp 2010.
Germany, Japan and the US represent nearly 89% of the total worldwide PV installed capacity.

Figures source from World PV Industry Report summary here's an article on the 2009-2010 report

So there's a dip 2008-2009 where only about 1.5GWp were installed, but then the total sold last year was more than double all installations to that point. Yep, that's some serious downturn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
You have to understand something Gungnir, I'm not for or against Solar/Wind. What I'm against is all the subsidies/tax breaks and everything else that goes along with it. When you're giving money to companies like this it breeds corruption and incompetence. As I already mentioned I've looked into solar myself mostly because of the green credit which could make the system pay me in a few years. I'm not paying for it long term, someone else is and that is the issue. I know for fact the only place I could place these gets almost no sunlight in the winter and very little even now. It wouldn't be a very economical application except for the subsidies/green credit, I would basically be wasting other peoples money and you know the solar installer is going to be pushing it like mad because it's not their money either. Here's the quote someone on my forum received just recently:

Assuming the installer wasn't giving him a line about the renewable energy credit in about 6 yeas he goes into the black. That's how they are pushing these installs in my state and the cost of this is fully bared by both the taxpayer and the ratepayer some of whom are the least able to afford it.
So what... The Electrical Power industry has been subsidized and given tax breaks, in every point of the supply chain since there's been an electrical power industry. You're getting your panties in a bunch because due to distributed power generation, the subsidies are more in your face apparent, unless you happened to know someone who wholly owned a thermal electrical plant you wouldn't know what went on prior. There are even sections of the Tax Code that specifically exempt fossil fuels and conventional power generation, that may not be applicable to alternative energy installations.

However with personal power generation the subsidies become apparent. If you look at the history of electrical power, it all started from electrical lighting of public streets. Who paid for that? Would it be local tax payers? Which would be a subsidy. The fact is once power was distributed by tax payer money to the street, the power companies could easily distribute to your home. To say that conventional power generation does not still have subsidies and tax breaks is disingenuous or intellectually dishonest.

Here's a list of some current projects and taxpayer funding
Prairie state energy campus, $303M investment by NIMPA, a branch of Illinois State Government which is using taxpayer money.

Longleaf Georgia, paid for by Federally backed local development bonds

Two Elk, "waste coal plant" currently tax exempt due to being waste disposal, it's a coal plant, that can notionally burn waste coal, being audited by IRS to confirm tax exempt status.

Taylorville Energy Center Federal Support $3B including a $417M tax credit
citation for Taylorville Illinois clean-coal project gets record federal tax credit

That's just the plants themselves, we know the World Bank finances projects to extract fossil fuels, which is partly funded by US taxpayer dollars and benefits conventionally fueled power plants, we know the Treasury issues tax exempt bonds and Build America bonds for coal mining and sometimes power plants, we know that the USDA provides assistance for rural power generation through their RUS program, and of course DOE tax credits, loans and loan guarantees. So "green" is not the only thing that's getting subsidies, incentives and breaks. You just hear about it more.

In fact if you see this report (and you can argue it's validity, but check its sources and methodologies first) $72B subsidies were provided to conventional fueled power generating between 2002-2008, of that $18.3B was in direct payments and grants.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:47 AM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,821,340 times
Reputation: 3950
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons View Post
So back to the OP -- . . . .

This should be good for a rant or blown gasket or three . . . .

Solar Electrical Vehicles
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:08 AM
 
15,924 posts, read 17,360,144 times
Reputation: 7641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
This should be good for a rant or blown gasket or three . . . .

Solar Electrical Vehicles
Why bother to open your own thread when you continue to hijack this one
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:16 PM
 
Location: California
51 posts, read 86,386 times
Reputation: 59
They say once you go EV you will never go back........... to a vehicle that needs ,tune-ups,oil changes,new mufflers,a gas tank that holds flammable liquids,and doesn't spew carbon monoxide into the air you breathe.
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:05 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,817,755 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunwilt View Post
They say once you go EV you will never go back........... to a vehicle that needs ,tune-ups,oil changes,new mufflers,a gas tank that holds flammable liquids,and doesn't spew carbon monoxide into the air you breathe.
Just wondering how the electric generated to charge the electric car is done without polluting the air.

If you calculate all the losses from initial electric power generation to final use as it goes through the electric car, we might be surprised to find that it is one of the most inefficient uses of energy conceived by humans.

The sales marketing behind electric vehicles is designed to avoid all the important questions that we need to honestly decide on the value of electric vehicles. If you ask some of the questions, you'll get glares, spin and comments like "it doesn't really matter."

1. What happens to those expended battery banks? Oh, you recycle them? What are the costs to do that?

A: uhhhhh.

2. If the power I get from the utility company is generated using coal, isn't the electric car being charged with that power in fact using very dirty power?

A: uhhhh.

It goes on and on and the electric car is nothing more than a dirty power laundering machine. The electric vehicle presents a nice, clean facade behind which is energy as dirty or worse than that emitted by the tailpipe of a diesel truck.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Texas
843 posts, read 1,371,126 times
Reputation: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Just wondering how the electric generated to charge the electric car is done without polluting the air.

If you calculate all the losses from initial electric power generation to final use as it goes through the electric car, we might be surprised to find that it is one of the most inefficient uses of energy conceived by humans.

The sales marketing behind electric vehicles is designed to avoid all the important questions that we need to honestly decide on the value of electric vehicles. If you ask some of the questions, you'll get glares, spin and comments like "it doesn't really matter."

1. What happens to those expended battery banks? Oh, you recycle them? What are the costs to do that?

A: uhhhhh.

2. If the power I get from the utility company is generated using coal, isn't the electric car being charged with that power in fact using very dirty power?

A: uhhhh.

It goes on and on and the electric car is nothing more than a dirty power laundering machine. The electric vehicle presents a nice, clean facade behind which is energy as dirty or worse than that emitted by the tailpipe of a diesel truck.
Battery causes more pollution. This is the greatest problem electric vehicles have.

Electrciity can be generated in so many ways...like nuclear power. Next generation nuclear power will be way more efficient.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:41 AM
 
9,779 posts, read 10,016,328 times
Reputation: 5243
Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
Once all the above factors are figured in the electric automobile is worse than a gasoline powered car when it comes to lifetime CO2 pollution.
I think the real problem is that people purchase a heavy enough car to comfortably carry four people across the country, and then they spend 95% of their time driving fifty miles from home with a few packages and one person.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:46 AM
 
89 posts, read 117,531 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Just wondering how the electric generated to charge the electric car is done without polluting the air.

If you calculate all the losses from initial electric power generation to final use as it goes through the electric car, we might be surprised to find that it is one of the most inefficient uses of energy conceived by humans.

The sales marketing behind electric vehicles is designed to avoid all the important questions that we need to honestly decide on the value of electric vehicles. If you ask some of the questions, you'll get glares, spin and comments like "it doesn't really matter."

1. What happens to those expended battery banks? Oh, you recycle them? What are the costs to do that?

A: uhhhhh.

2. If the power I get from the utility company is generated using coal, isn't the electric car being charged with that power in fact using very dirty power?

A: uhhhh.

It goes on and on and the electric car is nothing more than a dirty power laundering machine. The electric vehicle presents a nice, clean facade behind which is energy as dirty or worse than that emitted by the tailpipe of a diesel truck.
Most coal generated power in the usa is not very dirty these days. One of the major exceptions for this is the coal generated power that goes to Losangeles. It is some of the dirtyest in the nation. (UTAH DWP plant) Being that Losangeles EV's use this power to charge their batteries it is safe to assume that Losangeles EV's are among the most poluting cars in the nation.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:56 AM
 
89 posts, read 117,531 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi-town Native View Post
I tried exactly that with the Hummer/Prius one, and guess what? The company refused to publish it. Want a link for more info?

As far as the nonsense about how EVs use all this coal, you might want to get up to speed on the reality of the refinery industry:

How much electricity is used refine a gallon of Gasoline?-video added! « Gateway Electric Vehicle Club

About 4 - 7.5 kWh per gallon of Gas.

2.77 miles per kWh for an EV (based on 36kWh per 100mi) Refining a single gallon of gas could move an EV 11 miles (assuming 4 kWh and 19 miles assuming 7kWh).

This does not take into account how much energy was used to:
-Search for the Oil
-Drill for the Oil
-Transport the Oil
-Transport the Gasoline
-The engergy contained in the fuel itself.

Almost all modern refineries generate their own power from recycling of waste heat that is given off exothermicly during the refining process. Many generate an excess of power that is then sold to the local utility. So the reality is that one gallon of refined gasoline generated the energy to power your EV for the 11 miles. Not the otherway around.
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