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Old 07-07-2011, 09:17 AM
 
4,517 posts, read 6,344,826 times
Reputation: 3082

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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Charging an electric car does cost. There is a fuel cost.
Understand. I am talking about folks that get them to go with PV. Our PV systems tend to produce surplus. This is a good application and use for that surplus.


Quote:
I subscribed to an electric vehicle website a year ago, and I have been watching the 'progress'. It seems horribly slow.
Completely agree.

Have come to the observation that the auto industry R E A L L Y does not like or want them.

On the other hand, the Electric Utility industry sure does. There is so much surplus electricity, they are hoping the cars will be a market for the surplus electricity.

Quote:

I have contacted our local dealerships, and I am on their list to be notified whenever they get a firm date for when such cars will be delivered to their lot.
Same for us. But according to some folks, nobody wants them and they will never sell. Go figger.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:43 PM
 
15,102 posts, read 9,408,063 times
Reputation: 6733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
You do not even have the information for the last 6 months correct, and now you are predicting through the future 5 years? Yeah, I am going with your market advice.
Funny, I post URL's to back up/confirm what I post, you on the other hand post nothing except verbiage and sales pitches....

Please tell WSJ (amongst other professional organizations) their statistics/predictions are wrong, not me.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:49 PM
 
23,269 posts, read 17,639,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post

Especially with Zero fuel cost for the next 100K miles.
Free fuel? Let me in on that deal, where do I sign up.

No such thing, firstly the average tax on fuel is about 50 cents gallon which funds the roads we drive on. No tax, no roads. Electric cars are not paying this tax and are subsidized (yet another subsidy) by gasoline powered vehicles. Tha average vehicle in the US gets about 22 miles per gallon so for every 22 miles driven in electric car it's subsidized about 50 cents. If you were drive this car for 100K the grand total is $4,500 of unpaid tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Understand. I am talking about folks that get them to go with PV. Our PV systems tend to produce surplus. This is a good application and use for that surplus.
LOL, these systems do not cost money? These sytems are not subsidized by the taxpayer by about 50%. These sytems are not subsidized by the ratepayers as they are in my state?


Where is the free part?

Last edited by thecoalman; 07-07-2011 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:17 PM
 
4,517 posts, read 6,344,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Free fuel? Let me in on that deal, where do I sign up.

Did not say free -- just Zero cost to the end user.

Quote:
No such thing, firstly the average tax on fuel is about 50 cents gallon which funds the roads we drive on. No tax, no roads. Electric cars are not paying this tax and are subsidized (yet another subsidy) by gasoline powered vehicles. Tha average vehicle in the US gets about 22 miles per gallon so for every 22 miles driven in electric car it's subsidized about 50 cents. If you were drive this car for 100K the grand total is $4,500 of unpaid tax.
But factor in what would saved overall by not bombing and invading other countries for Oil (A HUGE subsidy for that industry) and the electric still comes out a better deal.

But let's work from your 22 mpg car example -- So a car that gets say 44 miles per gallon would some how have created $2250 in unpaid tax?

How about the cigarette tax I avoid by not buying and paying tobacco tax?

At any rate some states are already way ahead of you on this. Oregon, for example has been pondering a per mile road tax when they looked ahead and did the math figured out that with the Road Taxes being based on a Dead Horse like Oil and Gasoline, they better figure something else out.


Quote:
LOL, these systems do not cost money? These sytems are not subsidized by the taxpayer by about 50%. These sytems are not subsidized by the ratepayers as they are in my state?
Just saying what it works out to the end-user. Sweet deal if you are smart enough to take it. Then again for the folks that do not want it, there is always Coal and Oil. At least for a little while.

Quote:
Where is the free part?
Probably with the Free Beer, Free Sex, and Carbon Credit Taxes at the End of the Rainbow.
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:50 PM
 
15,102 posts, read 9,408,063 times
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I see some people have no clue as to what this thread was started for, it sure wasn't about bombing and invading other countries over oil and road taxes.

Maybe they should start their own despise oil love electric thread instead of hijacking threads and push their agenda there

Back on topic.......

Recent studies show that due to the complexity of lithium mining, producing, recycling, discarding toxic waste of the unrecyclable parts of the batteries, and producing the power needed to recharge the batteries; the electric car produces a larger carbon footprint and more CO2 over itís useful life span than a traditional gas powered car.

Additionally, it does nothing for energy independence because the US produces almost no lithium needed for the batteries.

But guess who does? Right, China.

Like Ethanol, electric cars do nothing for the environment, nothing to reduce CO2, and nothing for energy independence.

But both are more expensive.

Last edited by plwhit; 07-07-2011 at 07:55 PM..
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:56 AM
 
Location: DC
3,623 posts, read 2,477,986 times
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Nonsense, Lithium is widely available currently from about 10 countries. The largest producer is Chile. There's more than enough for our electric needs. The carbon footprint of a PHEV is a fraction of it's gasoline powered rival.
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
21,869 posts, read 28,669,930 times
Reputation: 8913
After reading an article from Mitsubishi about their new "Mitsubishi i" and it's three versions, I clicked on their website' link to get a price quote from a local dealership [and filled out the form].

Mitsubishi i Electric Car | Mitsubishi i Electric Vehicle | Mitsubishi Motors

An hour later I got a phone call from a salesman, she said that she had gotten notification that I was interested in buying an Eclipse. So I explained that I had been on their website and read about the new 'i" coming out and wanted to know more about the 'i'.

She had never heard of the vehicle.

If you work for a company, and your a salesmen, so your career is to market your company's product line. Maybe knowing a small bit about the product line would be appropriate.

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Old 07-08-2011, 09:11 AM
 
4,517 posts, read 6,344,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Nonsense.
Pretty much why I have started ignoring it.

But would love any opposing discussion based on reality.
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:30 AM
 
23,269 posts, read 17,639,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Did not say free -- just Zero cost to the end user.
Spoken like a true salesman, if I buy a wood stove to heat my house I can get "free" wood off my land. I don't use wood.... LOL.

You still have the initial investment and since they are taxpayer and the costs of products they buy are effected by electric rates they are in sense still a ratepayer too. While there costs might be minimized with subsidization they still are not paying zero. If the free market did this they call it a ponzi scheme.



Quote:
But let's work from your 22 mpg car example -- So a car that gets say 44 miles per gallon would some how have created $2250 in unpaid tax?
The gasoline tax while not perfect is one of the more fair taxes because larger vehicles that do more damage to the road pay more because they use more fuel. As electric cars and more fuel efficient cars come on the market the revenue decreases but the costs to build and maintain roads do not. We could increase the gasoline tax but that doesn't address electric cars. The fairest way to levy these taxes would be based on formula using the weight of the vehicle and the miles driven. The Chevy volt is listed at almost 3800 pounds which is in the upper range of your average mid sized sedan in that 22mpg fuel economy range.




Quote:

Just saying what it works out to the end-user. Sweet deal if you are smart enough to take it. Then again for the folks that do not want it, there is always Coal and Oil. At least for a little while.
Spending other peoples money is always cheap.
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:41 AM
 
4,517 posts, read 6,344,826 times
Reputation: 3082
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
After reading an article from Mitsubishi about their new "Mitsubishi i" and it's three versions, I clicked on their website' link to get a price quote from a local dealership [and filled out the form].

Mitsubishi i Electric Car | Mitsubishi i Electric Vehicle | Mitsubishi Motors

An hour later I got a phone call from a salesman, she said that she had gotten notification that I was interested in buying an Eclipse. So I explained that I had been on their website and read about the new 'i" coming out and wanted to know more about the 'i'.

She had never heard of the vehicle.

If you work for a company, and your a salesmen, so your career is to market your company's product line. Maybe knowing a small bit about the product line would be appropriate.

Thanks for that. At $20K they may have to sell themselves?

It was funny with the Volt (Chevy) folks. They knew the product, but did not have it available for sale.

But that overall chaos -- The whole industry (renewable energy) has that going on.

We have folks come in daily that we cannot get a timely response back to.

Like I mentioned above, I am an Engineer type -- not really sales, but get drawn across the line for technical issues and support.

This is what I have been telling folks that what anything outside of mainstream cookie-cutter applications: "Here is what I know about what you would like to do . . . . (and then give them basic details about -- water pumping, off grid, hybrid mix of Wind and Solar . . . on and on. ) but understand, we may not be able to get back to you this year . . . "

I guess we technical folks are somewhat falling down on fully educating the sales folks, but there is only so much that can be done.

Taking US off Oil is a HUGE (LARGE, GINORMUS) body of work. Probably bigger than the US Interstate Highway System, Apollo Moon Project, and Endless Wars, combined.

If there were even a scrap of unity on it, unemployment would be in very low digits, the budgets would be heading towards balanced, and the US would have a very bright future.
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