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No thanks, just think how much food & meat would cost if they had to make only bio fuel. (soy or corn)
bio fuel does very poorly in cold climates.
Water is more of a problem than ever before biodiesel fuels hold water dissolved in them. The amount of water that ULSD is able to hold is greater than that of HSD or LSD. One of the characteristics of fuel is that its ability to hold water in solution diminishes as the temperature decreases. Fuel delivered at 70°F with 200 ppm of dissolved water will as the temperature drops begin to push that water out of the fuel into droplets. These droplets can be seen floating in the fuel and as temperatures reach and go below 32°F those droplets freeze becoming ice crystals.
As a result many of the cold weather problems where people believe they have fuel gelling problem are actually a fuel icing problem. If you have operability issues in temperatures above 0°F you should check to be sure that you aren’t dealing with ice.
So that will not work at this time in cold areas.
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Originally Posted by Philip T
.Sure. I do not think (or at least hope) Any One figures everybody, everywhere in the US would be on E85. Longer term would be better to dump the Gasoline portion altogether, run some remote areas on various Bio-Fuels and put most of US on Grid Power electric.
No thanks, just think how much food & meat would cost if they had to make only bio fuel. (soy or corn)
Most likely would not be Soy or Corn as the optimal source. End of this year the import tariff goes away, and sugar-based ethanol will be in the market mix.
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So that will not work at this time in cold areas.
That has been the argument for keeping the remaining 15% gasoline in E85.
Ever tried a simple heat jacket on the fuel lines?
Many of the early ethanol plant did have poor energy balances, but modern plant have a positive balance. People are often slow to learn.
I get 360 miles to a tank of Gasoline and get 180-200 miles to a tank of E85.
People can say what they want about E85 but I don't like stopping for fuel anymore than I have to and E85 isn't offered in a lot of the areas I travel as well.
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Turning canola oil into biodiesel may be Oregon and Washington's best short-term option for cashing in on the national rush to biofuels.
But as Madison's predicament highlights, the states' farmers face significant limits in growing the crop, despite a big push from government, new tax breaks and the buzz about biofuels' potential to strengthen rural economies.
At most, Oregon could produce enough canola for 10 million gallons of biodiesel a year, less than 2 percent of the state's diesel consumption, an Oregon State University study concluded. Counting production costs and tax breaks, OSU economist William Jaeger (http://arec.oregonstate.edu/jaeger/homepage.html - broken link) found that to cut the same amount of fossil fuel, growing canola was 11 times more costly than raising gas taxes.
It would take 133,000 to 400,000 acres of canola to meet Washington's requirement that diesel contain at least 2 percent biodiesel, according to a review by Washington State University analyst Kate Painter. In 2006, the state's farmers harvested 7,500 acres of canola."
The city is using fuel blended with 50 percent biodiesel (B50) for the city's diesel fleet. Under a contract with Salem-based SeQuential-Pacific Biodiesel -- Oregon's only biodiesel plant -- Portland officials agreed to pay the refinery and Madison the cost of production plus a little profit. That means the city will pay more than $4 a gallon for biodiesel, compared with about $3 for petroleum diesel.
Let's assume that you drive a Toyota Camry, the best-selling car in America in 2000. We know that the Toyota Camry with automatic transmission gets 30 miles per gallon of gas on the highway.
Gasoline is more efficient than ethanol. One gallon of gasoline is equal to 1.5 gallons of ethanol. This means that same Camry would only get about 20 miles to the gallon if it were running on ethanol.
We also need to know how far you are traveling: Let's say from Los Angeles to New York, which is 2,774 miles (4,464.2 km), according to MapQuest.com.
Through research performed at Cornell University, we know that 1 acre of land can yield about 7,110 pounds (3,225 kg) of corn, which can be processed into 328 gallons (1240.61 liters) of ethanol. That is about 26.1 pounds (11.84 kg) of corn per gallon.
First, we need to figure out how much fuel we will need:
2,774 miles / 20 miles per gallon = 138.7 gallons
[SIZE=-1](METRIC: 4,464.2 km / 8.5 km per liter = 525.2 liters) [/SIZE] We know that it takes 26.1 pounds of corn to make 1 gallon of ethanol, so we can now calculate how many pounds of corn we need to fuel the Camry on its trip:
138.7 gallons * 26.1 pounds = 3,620.07 total pounds of corn
[SIZE=-1](METRIC: 525.2 liters * 3.13 kg = 1,642 kg)[/SIZE] You will need to plant a little more than a half an acre of corn to produce enough ethanol to fuel your trip.
According to the research from Cornell, you need about 140 gallons (530 liters) of fossil fuel to plant, grow and harvest an acre of corn. So, even before the corn is converted to ethanol, you're spending about $1.05 per gallon.
"The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented," reads the Cornell report. The corn has to be processed with various enzymes; yeast is added to the mixture to ferment it and make alcohol; the alcohol is then distilled to fuel-grade ethanol that is 85- to 95-percent pure. To produce ethanol that can be used as fuel, it also has to be denatured with a small amount of gasoline.
The final cost of the fuel-grade ethanol is about $1.74 per gallon. (Of course, a lot of variables go into that number.) HowStuffWorks "How much corn would I need to grow in order to produce enough et"
And where is this crop going to be grown?
On the Moon?
Usually the Moon is considered prime for various Hydrogen sources.
Meanwhile back on Earth . . . Some in the US, as now, and larger amounts in other countries that have large potential for Sugar Cane related fuel sources. Cuba, Haiti, Most of the Coastal area around the Gulf of Mexico and Caribbean is very favorable. That is the point of the Tariff going off.
The present US Corn pricing has some Severe Downside Risk.
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Even if we stopped growing food and just grow crops for bio fuel we wouldn't have enough acreage to meet our fuel needs.
Not talking anywhere near at all the present consumption. Dunno if you really follow this? Have you done ANY of the math?
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"Ever tried a simple heat jacket on the fuel lines? "
What will keep it warm when the vehicle is off?
Heat strip like a glow plug or tank heater does for a diesel tank? I was just asking if you have ever tried it? I take it the answer is, "no?"
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Lastly how are you going to power these new power plants to supply the new demand for electricity if we push for electric powered transportation?
"The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented," reads the Cornell report. The corn has to be processed with various enzymes; yeast is added to the mixture to ferment it and make alcohol; the alcohol is then distilled to fuel-grade ethanol that is 85- to 95-percent pure. To produce ethanol that can be used as fuel, it also has to be denatured with a small amount of gasoline.
The final cost of the fuel-grade ethanol is about $1.74 per gallon. (Of course, a lot of variables go into that number.) HowStuffWorks "How much corn would I need to grow in order to produce enough et"
The corn has to be processed with various enzymes -- very little energy there.
yeast is added to the mixture to ferment it and make alcohol -- again, very little energy there.
the alcohol is then distilled to fuel-grade ethanol that is 85- to 95-percent pure. -- Finally SOME energy used there -- but that can all be Solar Thermal, and surplus Wind.
To produce ethanol that can be used as fuel, it also has to be denatured with a small amount of gasoline. Not much energy there, either.
Overall, to claim this is an energy consumptive process seems rather silly.
I don't have to try it to know if it would work or not.
Lets say you put heaters in your fuel system from tank to injector.
Where is this power going to come from?
The Alt? yup this will create even more of a load for the engine.
The other big proublem comes when you shut it off.
No more heat= freeze up.
Sure, you could leave it running as you go into a store or to work.
Then you would have to plug it in over night.
temps drop into the negative # and the power bill will be over $2.00 a night as it takes areund a $1.oo to run just a block heater over night.
Where are the savings?
"Overall, to claim this is an energy consumptive process seems rather silly. "
The farmer has to grow it, trucker to transport it, then transport it to market. It's easy to see more power goes into making it than you get from burning it.
I don't have to try it to know if it would work or not.
Lets say you put heaters in your fuel system from tank to injector.
Where is this power going to come from?
The Alt? yup this will create even more of a load for the engine.
The other big proublem comes when you shut it off.
No more heat= freeze up.
Sure, you could leave it running as you go into a store or to work.
Then you would have to plug it in over night.
temps drop into the negative # and the power bill will be over $2.00 a night as it takes areund a $1.oo to run just a block heater over night.
Where are the savings?
So I get it, you have no practical (as in practiced) knowledge of the topic. I get it, and that is fine.
As far as block heaters, even my truck has one. And so do the back-up generators we install. Not exactly rocket science or energy hawgs, per se.
As far as my asking, I am heading more towards run-time. About like on propane/NG tractors during cold weather. Doing a hot water jacket or loop up a fuel line is not that big of deal.
It is hardly the only option to deal with cold weather.
Diesels have been started all my lifetime with a shot of ether. Starting an Ethanol engine on Butanol (a 4 carbon alcohol) is an easy fix, as well.
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"Overall, to claim this is an energy consumptive process seems rather silly. "
The farmer has to grow it, trucker to transport it, then transport it to market. It's easy to see more power goes into making it than you get from burning it.
Where are the savings?
hmmm, ok, I think you are saying that presumption and appearance is the basis of knowledge? Not trying to be hard on you, but that is actually the basis of magic tricks. Beyond that you never actually do math on Anything?
How does THAT work on the farm? We tend to study, research, and actually test matters on our end of things.
But if you prefer illustrations -- If a farmer is growing it -- whatever it/sugar source crop . . . in a rural area where it is more likely to be consumed . . . and made into fuel locally, and used as fuel locally . . . why would that consume more energy? It would appear that it would need less, as well as keeping more money local.
The argument you are making is more against Gasoline and Diesel being piped/pumped into rural markets, where that then goes on trucks to deliver it to local retail. That is processed and transported from remote locations and then has to be re-handled several times.
Maybe you do not comprehend some of the core concepts of Green -- this forum area? Local production and use is one of them. It is sort of a countermeasure against the (now failing) Globalony Market Theory.
Locally produced Ethanol and other Bio-Fuels fit that part of Green Model rather well.
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Ah O.K.
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