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Old 06-16-2012, 09:08 PM
2,737 posts, read 4,324,955 times
Reputation: 1785


Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
Why is it this forum has more people that seem to be clueless when it comes to staying on topic?

factory farms and global warming
No, no, no... Some city kid has recently discovered that Factory Farms are THE cause of Global Warming! Where have you been?

Old 06-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Location: Central Texas
20,391 posts, read 37,728,735 times
Reputation: 22529
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I can tell you what they are. Do you want to see pictures? They are places that put family farms out of business and keep animals in cruel and inhumane conditions.

Since the harbor and kill huge quantities of animals in an efficient way, they are called "factory farms."

They are not under the jurisdiction of local humane societies, so essentially they can do what they want.

They are not a myth.
Sheena, I do hope that you realize that photos and videos put out by animal rights groups are art more than reality. And that some animal rights groups have put out videos to the public but, when court cases grew out of them, resisted until forced by the courts providing the COMPLETE video, which showed that what actually happened was, in some parts, the complete opposite of what was presented in the edited version as happening, and in other cases was instigated and participated in by the "underground" videographer in order to get "good footage".

Unless you really believe in wookies and all of the other creatures seen in the bar scene in Star Wars, take any such things presented to you as "proof" by animal rights groups with a large measure of salt. Especially if it's HSUS/PETA (the same thing if you've followed the money and the personnel over the years, and Ingrid Newkirk has proudly said that truth is only 10% of their "recipe" - shock value is 80%).

You sound like someone who has not a clue not only about farming OR animals but about the bottom line of businesses that raise animals. Family farms are threatened as much by HSUS as they are by Big Ag.
Old 06-17-2012, 11:25 AM
Location: NJ
16,822 posts, read 11,767,099 times
Reputation: 10822
The issue began as human caused gloabl warming. An egocentric attitude whose mainstream science contended that the earth was the center of the universe to emphasize the importance of humans in the universe. Just as then, opponents have been persecuted and jobs lost.

Most discussions now avoid the initial charge of global warming being HUMAN CAUSED. Unfortunately the federal bureaucracy has infiltrated state regulations which direct costly and ineffective actions that have been institutionalized almost without knowledge to most voters.

The earth is constantly heating and cooling. Pick one and you won't be wrong.

Problem is global warming has been used as a lynchpin to introduce a new world order. A common foe that all the world will have to battle, a common foe to 'unite' the world.

When someone tells you the science is settled and people are fired for not aligning, Run, Forrest, Run.
Science has been hijacked and used as an attempt to validate an ideology.

The earth deserves our respect but the tidal wave of global warming regs are overzealous, an economic disaster and the latest money maker for all the Algores who are sitting on mountains of cash so in event of a significant change in climate, these scoundrels will easily survive. Nature at its best, the top predators feed on the prey animals. So rest assured as human caused global warming is a money maker, it will be marketed with greedy enthusiasm.
Old 06-17-2012, 08:29 PM
Location: Nesconset, NY
2,203 posts, read 3,471,092 times
Reputation: 2120
Originally Posted by Jimspy View Post
My problem with this stems, first, from your statement "No, humankind is not the cause." Now, I have several letters after my name: IANACS/DEGC. (I Am Not A Climate Scientist/Didn't Even Graduate College). But I don't feel I need to have any advanced edge-a-ma-kashun to simply pass along what the vast majority (damn near all) climate scientists are saying. However, in order for you to make this flat, unqualified, contrarian statement, I suspect you would need about 17 letters after your name; or, at the very least, if you are auto-didactic (as I am), I would hope that you can at least show that you have some advanced knowledge equivalent to that of those selfsame climate scientists. Otherwise, I have no reason to take your statements seriously.

There's actually not much else to take issue with, except this: "If one looks at evidence prior to [the LIA] then it's obvious humankind is not the cause." This is something of a non-sequitur. Mankind was not the cause of previous warmings, therefore, mankind CANNOT be the cause of this one? Isn't that a bit like FDR saying, "The Japanese have never sunk our battleships before, therefore, they cannot be responsible for Pearl Harbor"? Scientists are pretty sure...ok, darned sure they know the causes of previous warmings, and the factors in those warmings are not present today. Furthermore, they know the rapidity of those warmings, and nothing in known history compares with the speed with which we are warming today. They have narrowed it down to the degree that ONLY man can be responsible for what we are seeing. It's not a solar cycle, it's not a Milankovitch cycle, it's not anything seen before. Now, if you really do have that advanced knowledge, can you tell the scientists exactly what they are missing? What cycle is causing this?
Okay, Global Warming Petition Project
Old 06-17-2012, 09:14 PM
7,315 posts, read 5,524,426 times
Reputation: 2837
Good point!

Originally Posted by Jimspy View Post
As to Al Gore...just remember, if he had never existed, the earth would still be warming.
Old 06-17-2012, 09:24 PM
7,315 posts, read 5,524,426 times
Reputation: 2837
Too late. The New World Order is already here, but it wasn't caused by scientists.

Originally Posted by Kracer View Post
Problem is global warming has been used as a lynchpin to introduce a new world order. A common foe that all the world will have to battle, a common foe to 'unite' the world.
Old 06-18-2012, 11:48 PM
Location: Payson, AZ
40 posts, read 55,060 times
Reputation: 48
Originally Posted by Big George View Post
That was a rhetorical question, right?

And actually, unless my memory fails me, Al & Tipper are divorced. There must have been some "other things" that weren't quite right...

Honestly, I think what irks me about the militant greenies is their incredible hypocrisy. Most of them talk a big talk, but they simply don't live it. Period.

My wife & I aren't big talking greenies. We do, however, have 3 large gardens. We also live 1/2 mile from her office, and about 1 mile from mine. We put less than 10,000 miles per year on all our vehicles (combined). I've super-insulated & sealed, so that our 4400 square foot house only requires $50 per month (even-pay) of natural gas to heat. We recycle, we compost, all that junk. We just do it because it's the right and smart thing to do.

Then I see & hear all these dipsticks like Al Gore, and other Celebrity Greenies, that are just idiots. Some wise guy added it up several years ago, and confirmed that Gore went through over 56,000 gallons of jet fuel, flying all over the country promoting his film, "Inconvenient Truth." Ummm... REALLY? Why doesn't he just admit that he's in it for the money, then shut up and go home.
I think what might be throwing you off is the idea that the so-called "greenies" are pressuring you, Big George, to be greener, to change your light bulbs, to buy a Prius, etc. Sure, that's all well and good, and bravo for your efforts. But that's not what I'm all about. As Obama himself once said, "It's not about me changing a f**king light bulb." What I'm telling you, in no uncertain terms, is that it's probably too late for all of that. I know that my energy demands are probably not going to go down, and neither are yours. I know that my carbon footprint is probably a mile-wide. And I am never giving up my Chevy Tahoe LTZ with electric sunroof, automatic retracting running boards, DVD, GPS, electric fold-down seats, etc. - I wanna be BURIED in that thing!

No, it's about finding alternative energy sources at the macro level. Wind, solar, bio, geothermal, and yes, I even support nuclear. (A tree-hugger I ain't). But what I'm really here to tell you all is that it's probably too late for that stuff, too. The way I see it, we're locked into a 3-degree-celsius rise by 2050, and possibly 6 degrees by 2100 (an Extinction-Level Event). If we all went Flintstones tomorrow, we're still going to lose Miami.

So no, I'm not here to lecture or "guilty" you into a life-style change, or even to support cap-and-trade. I'm just the messenger of doom.

As for Al Gore....who cares? (And really...his marital status?? Come on, George, you can do better than that!)
Old 06-19-2012, 12:19 AM
Location: Payson, AZ
40 posts, read 55,060 times
Reputation: 48
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
Actually, it's more like atheism or agnosticism.

But I do like to see that you said, "Isn't that a bit religious, as well?" which means that deep in your heart you know that for very many climate change or global warming as "it's all our fault" is religion, not science.

Oh, and you do know how the entries in Wikipedia are created, right? That means that it's not terribly useful as a primary source, though it's good for getting links to SOME sources, sometimes. You still have to determine the credibility of the sources, though, because the choice of them is as prone to bias as the entries are.
Oh, well-played. Touche'. My mind is in knots over the multi-layered irony in this post. Let me see if I can straighten it out...

First of all, the irony of your first sentence is that I myself am an atheist, and yes, we atheists are fond of saying, "If Atheism is a religion, baldness is a hair color". (In other words, it's not a religion, it's the LACK of religion). BUT...here's the difference. Atheism is an outgrowth of the philosophy of Skepticism, and skeptical thought, in order to be effective, MUST be self-referencing and recursive. We atheists constantly examine our own thought processes to make sure they are free of any dogma, any stultifying baggage that might cause us to reach a wrong conclusion. We are skeptical of our own skepticism, and open to any evidence that might lead us in a different direction. (So far, haven't found any, BUT that's a whole different thread). What I encounter among climate denialists is a stubborn unwillingness to listen to any facts that contradict their position. In fact, I've seen many deniers get defeated in debates on one climate blog, only to turn up on another one repeating the same debunked "factoids". A favorite example is the utter crap about "volcanoes spew more CO2 than humans." Blatantly false, easily debunked. But I've seen the same denier post it in several places, even AFTER being shown that it IS completely false. And that's a behavior I've seen elsewhere, to wit: among Creationists. And THAT'S "religious." It's certainly not skepticism.

Now, there is room for skepticism in this debate - good, honest, skepticism, where one has doubts, one asks questions, one listens to and evaluates the answers, and either accepts them or challenges them on logical grounds. Happens all the time. I, for example, am somewhat skeptical of the more alarming sea-level-rise claims. I'm not comfortable with claims of 9 meters and more, when we're currently seeing millimeters per decade. But, I have no choice but to accept the explanation proffered by people with many letters after their name, that the rise will accelerate with the melting of the icecaps. I have no logical basis on which to challenge that. It makes sense. By "accept" it, I mean I don't go around saying it won't happen. I don't have any basis on which to make that pronouncement.

So, no, as you can see, it's certainly not a religion with me, and while I am aware of a few "warmists" who accept the worst-case scenarios unquestioningly, by far most climate change proponents are firmly rooted in science and facts, and as such, are OPEN TO CHALLENGE on the very same basis. Doesn't sound too religious to me.

And as to Wikipedia, yes, I know quite a bit about it, having contributed to it, and having seen the extremely robust editing process, the care that is taken to ensure that "POV" is weeded out, and the overall intensity with which contributions are held to a high standard. It's the most prominent example of a living document, and of course care must be taken...but over the long run, it's not a bad source at all.
Old 06-19-2012, 06:59 AM
Location: Central Texas
20,391 posts, read 37,728,735 times
Reputation: 22529
Jimspy, if you don't think atheism is a religion for many, many atheists, you're either just not paying attention or you're unable to see that reality because you're one of the ones for whom that is the case. (By the way, married a philosopher, gave birth to and raised them, not about to be tied in knots because someone wants to play that game. Much like being the shaman's daughter - a preacher's kid - I'm familiar with what's behind the curtain and that's an innoculation in and of itself.)

Also, another contributor to Wikipedia who then holds up Wikipedia as "proof" of the very "facts" that they, themselves, inserted in it. Do you, with your skepticism and self-examination, not see the inherent problem with that?
Old 06-19-2012, 09:49 AM
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
17,780 posts, read 53,957,343 times
Reputation: 30099
"So no, I'm not here to lecture or "guilty" you into a life-style change, or even to support cap-and-trade. I'm just the messenger of doom."

Kewl. What kind of outfit do you guys wear?

If humanity gets motivated enough, technology will come to the rescue. It could be as simple as Earth getting an artificial ring like Saturn's to reduce the amount of sunlight impinging. It'll also make a GREAT movie screen for advertisers...
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