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Old 08-24-2012, 01:17 PM
 
Location: DC
6,506 posts, read 6,426,164 times
Reputation: 3102

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
No it isn't, fuel taxes in the US are used to build and maintain the infrastructure that cars drive on. If everyone is driving an electric car how do you pay for roads and bridges? Of course you have to tax them which is not the case right now. If you're going to make a comparison between the cost of fuels you need to account for gasoline powered vehicles subsidizing electric ones because it's substantial amount over the life of the car.
We'll cross that bridge when we have that many electric cars (pun intended)


Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I got news for you, right now the cost of electricity has only remained cheap because of the boom in natural gas. With the closing of the coal power plants, greater reliance on natural gas across the board for many things including power plants that isn't going to last. This is just the honeymoon, come talk to me in 3 to 5 years.
LOL Gas from shale is going to be around a lot longer than 3-5 years. This with tightening environmental rule will pretty much kill new coal fired plants in this country and hasten the closure of existing plants.
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:01 PM
 
39,189 posts, read 40,571,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
We'll cross that bridge when we have that many electric cars (pun intended)
I think it was Oregon or Washington they were proposing a flat tax for a few hundred each year but that will not cover the costs. Ultimately you'll see some form of mile driven tax which would be the fairest way to distribute them especially if the weight of the vehicle is factored in.


Quote:
LOL Gas from shale is going to be around a lot longer than 3-5 years. This with tightening environmental rule will pretty much kill new coal fired plants in this country and hasten the closure of existing plants.
Why is it that utilities are turning to NG, because it's cheaper than coal and the safer bet where environmental regualtions are concerned. The producers here in PA have already scaled backed production, that will scale back up at some point but only when the price comes up. You will have an increased demand from utilities, manufacturers, homes , cars etc.

If coal is out of the equation what is going to keep the price of natural gas low if NG no longer has to compete with that price? Then when coal is out of the picture where do organizations like the Sierra Club get to focus their attention?
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:50 PM
 
Location: DC
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Coal has no impact on the price of electricity outside some areas of the Midwest currently. The shutdown in coal plants means natural gas is lowering to wholesale price of electricity.
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:01 PM
 
39,189 posts, read 40,571,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Coal has no impact on the price of electricity outside some areas of the Midwest currently. The shutdown in coal plants means natural gas is lowering to wholesale price of electricity.
I'm not talking about what the situation is now but it will be in the future as there is much more demand for natural gas and the environmentalists set their sites on this vast energy source that has just come onto the market. The environmentalist in part were funded by the natural gas industry to help get rid of coal at first:


Quote:

Fractured Lives - July/August 2012- Sierra Magazine - Sierra Club

From 2007 to 2010, the Sierra Club's Beyond Coal campaign accepted more than $26 million from Chesapeake Energy, one of the country's largest natural gas producers. When new executive director Michael Brune learned of the donation in 2010, he turned away an additional $30 million that Chesapeake had promised and ended the Club's relationship with the company. Sierra editors spoke with Brune to clarify the Club's position on natural gas.


Not anymore though:
Quote:
What's the official position now?
We view natural gas as a significant source of air and water pollution and greenhouse-gas emissions. In addition to its large climate footprint, the extraction of natural gas is having a big impact on rural communities, state forests, and the landscapes that we've worked hard to protect. Our primary goal is still to retire coal plants as quickly as possible and replace them with genuinely clean energy like solar and wind. Investing in gas actually hinders deployment of wind and solar, so we want to leapfrog gas as we move to a clean-energy future.

What about recent studies that suggest that the extraction and burning of natural gas has a bigger impact on climate change than coal does?
They're alarming. Studies in places like the Marcellus Shale and Colorado have shown that the greenhouse emissions from natural gas are much, much worse than originally thought. Unfortunately, there isn't yet a comprehensive empirical analysis of the full carbon footprint of gas. So the Sierra Club—along with almost every other environmental group—is calling for a full study that documents those emissions and the extent to which they can be controlled or avoided altogether.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:54 PM
 
Location: DC
6,506 posts, read 6,426,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I'm not talking about what the situation is now but it will be in the future as there is much more demand for natural gas and the environmentalists set their sites on this vast energy source that has just come onto the market. The environmentalist in part were funded by the natural gas industry to help get rid of coal at first:
And your complaint is?????
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Old 08-25-2012, 03:53 AM
 
39,189 posts, read 40,571,673 times
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My complaint is what the cost of electricity is in the future. Coal is effectively being regulated out of the picture and the effects of that are being buffered by a booming natural gas industry that is next on the list of targets. There isn't anything to buffer rising costs when natural gas becomes the target of absurd regulations.
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:17 PM
 
Location: DC
6,506 posts, read 6,426,164 times
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At least we'll have a clean source of fuel to fight about.
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Old 08-28-2012, 04:44 AM
 
39,189 posts, read 40,571,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
At least we'll have a clean source of fuel to fight about.
That's subjective and you are now in the position of defending natural gas against the same propaganda machines that have fought so successfully against coal.
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 51,222,776 times
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I would like to bring the discussion to powering a small car with solar electricity.

You have to do the numbers and calculate your expected energy use and how much electric energy and be collected and stored in a fixed battery pack or in your car batteries when it is plugged into your system. The result is how much collection area required. Because you are also likely to be connected to the grid you can use that source of electricity to carry you through a stretch of low solar availability. The grid can also supply lower cost electrical energy during off peak hours.

You have to do the numbers before you can determine if this is worth the effort and cost.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:05 AM
 
Location: DC
6,506 posts, read 6,426,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
That's subjective and you are now in the position of defending natural gas against the same propaganda machines that have fought so successfully against coal.
It isn't propaganda that coal is a filthy fuel source that we need to phase out. We have more than enough renewable energy and natural gas to accomplish this. It won't materially change the price of electricity.
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