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Old 10-08-2012, 09:45 AM
 
Location: DC
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Battery exchange prices will drop dramatically as the quantity of recyclable batteries increases. There's just no need for an individual consumer to take that risk. The leasing company can diversify the risk. I understand there are great options on the Leaf, though as an all electric, it isn't as versatile as a plug in hybrid.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:56 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 18,452,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1960 View Post
The Norwegian University of Science and Technology study found greenhouse gas emissions rose dramatically if coal was used to produce the electricity.

Electric car factories also emitted more toxic waste than conventional car factories, their report in the Journal of Industrial Ecology said.

BBC News - Electric cars 'pose environmental threat'
absolutely, which is why virtually every person who wants an EV also wants alternatives for energy production. it's a chicken or the egg problem though. do we wait to purchase EVs until we implement more renewable energy production, or do we bite the bullet now and move our consumption off of oil and hope that helps spur more renewable energy investment?
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:05 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 18,452,028 times
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Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
They did what is called a life cycle assessment where everything is considered from "cradle to grave". For example as noted in the article it takes a lot more material and energy to manufacture the electric car.

Other things to consider is if for example your battery dies at 100K are you going to spend thousands of dollars to fix it? The price I've heard for the Volt is $9K.
the price of the Nissan Leaf's batter has already cut in half since it was inititally introduced. And there's no reason, currently, to suspect that it will die at 100,000 miles. It's a valid concern, but not as big of a concern as many would like people to believe. I've had my Acura TSX since December, 2005, and I drive quite a bit...approaching 100,000 miles in the next 2-3 weeks. I think 7 years is ample time for the price of the Volt's battery to drop by 50-80% or more. My concern with the Volt, then, is....will the engine continue to hold up well enough to justify spending that? If it were the Leaf, or a different all EV, then I would be more comfortable making the 'repair'.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:16 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 18,452,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Battery exchange prices will drop dramatically as the quantity of recyclable batteries increases. There's just no need for an individual consumer to take that risk. The leasing company can diversify the risk. I understand there are great options on the Leaf, though as an all electric, it isn't as versatile as a plug in hybrid.
Plus it will be interesting to see what happens to the cost of batteries as more and more EVs come to market in the next 2 years. Battery manufacturers are going to benefit from economies of scale as they have more orders to fill. I have read that the Volt battery costs up to $10,000. I would definitely be leasing a volt, or trying to sell it around 5 years/60,000 miles if I purchased it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:43 PM
 
39,498 posts, read 40,823,172 times
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Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
My concern with the Volt, then, is....will the engine continue to hold up well enough to justify spending that?
I've had GM cars with 200K on them, last one I sold was a century and at that point the rest of the car was the issue. That's pretty much part of my point though, there is lot of resale value in most cars with 100K on them because chances are you're going to get another 200K on them. I don't see how that is going to be possible in the near future with any of these car with batteries. Guess that's to be determined yet.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:51 PM
 
3,982 posts, read 5,768,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I'm doubting there will be many new batteries going into these cars unless the car has low miles, who in their right mind would put $9K into car with 100K+ on it?
Batteries can be repaired, reconditioned, etc. If you blow an engine or a transmission on an older car, do you put a brand new one in it? No, you rebuild them at a fraction of the cost.

Quote:
The leasing company is going to sell them for whatever they can get and it probably won't be much with a much shorter warranty period and giant price tag if it dies. When the battery dies they will either be scrapped or someone is going to be driving in a very inefficient small car because of all the extra weight.
While your logic might seem correct to you, it isn't. Again, batteries can be repaired, reconditioned, etc. The very standpoint that the Volt gets around 40 MPG on gas alone might make you want to rethink that last statement.

Quote:
If you're going to be powering a car with electric from natural gas you might as well just use CNG in the car itself.
Not necessarily. A CNG engine, like a gasoline engine, at best will convert about 25% of the combustion energy into mechanical energy. Conversely, about 40% of the combustion energy of NG is converted into electrical energy in a NG driven tubine. Electric motors are anywhere from 90-98% efficient in converting stored electrical energy into mechanical energy. In simple terms, that would make an electric vehicle at least 50% more efficient than an IC driven vehicle using the same original fuel source. IC engines have become a technology of the past that is merely being sustained because of the current infrastructure and availability of relatively stable liquid fuels. That day is drawing to a close.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Giethoorn, Netherlands
629 posts, read 1,018,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Battery exchange prices will drop dramatically as the quantity of recyclable batteries increases. There's just no need for an individual consumer to take that risk. The leasing company can diversify the risk. I understand there are great options on the Leaf, though as an all electric, it isn't as versatile as a plug in hybrid.
Now is the best time ever to lease a Leaf! I just got a 2012 on a 24-month lease for $240/month (after tax) with $0 due at signing!
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:25 AM
 
913 posts, read 750,232 times
Reputation: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
Of course, the answer is to green the electrical grid first! It'd work in some jurisdictions. I've lived in Quebec and British Columbia and in these provinces it'd make sense to use an electric car because the electricity is almost 100% derived from renewables.

i don't believe that figure. almost 100% renewables! got anything to back that up?
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:29 AM
 
913 posts, read 750,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I'm doubting there will be many new batteries going into these cars unless the car has low miles, who in their right mind would put $9K into car with 100K+ on it? The leasing company is going to sell them for whatever they can get and it probably won't be much with a much shorter warranty period and giant price tag if it dies. When the battery dies they will either be scrapped or someone is going to be driving in a very inefficient small car because of all the extra weight.

If you're going to be powering a car with electric from natural gas you might as well just use CNG in the car itself.
i tend to agree with your last statement. i cannot see how it would be more efficient to produce the electricity at a power station, transmit it and store it in a battery would be more efficient that just driving a car powered by gas directly?
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:34 AM
 
913 posts, read 750,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
absolutely, which is why virtually every person who wants an EV also wants alternatives for energy production. it's a chicken or the egg problem though. do we wait to purchase EVs until we implement more renewable energy production, or do we bite the bullet now and move our consumption off of oil and hope that helps spur more renewable energy investment?

imo, the only way to know that you're powering your ev with renewables is to produce the energy yourself. if i have a wind turbine. solar stack at home, i'd be driving an ev. from what i understand, all alternatives do (other than hydro and perhaps tidal) is produce useless energy. what i mean is that coal, nuclear and gas would be used in the same volume whether the renewables were there or not because they're unreliable and as far as i know, we dont have a means of storing the energy they create
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