U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Green Living
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-28-2012, 08:25 AM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,827,766 times
Reputation: 3955

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick gar View Post
Lithium supplies will kill the electric car.
You are saying the Electric = Battery, only? Just asking.

Quote:
Point source, transmission and emission efficiency should also be recognized by the electric car user as not so great.
Again, you are assuming that Electric = Battery, only?

Quote:
Coal or tar liquefaction is America's killer of electric car.
Unless all that kills the atmosphere, (and us) first.

Quote:
Unless we rewind 30 years and restore the push for "too cheap to meter" plants, where construction and capital interest and operating labor are 85% of the cost, the future is endless petrol.
No, not really. Electricity is already so surplus it has reached too cheap to meter -- actually free in some locations and times. Here is a sample >>>

Save With Free Nights Plan | TXU Energy

But as far as sticking with Oil . . . there is an end and it is very predictable and deadly, in very massive and large scales.

You follow that Tar Sands and Coal Conversion are literally scrape, scrape, scraping the bottom of the barrel? It is a clear sign that the Cheap and Easy stuff is truly going, going, to soon be gone?

Think about other countries, cultures, that get to the point they are trying to do Coal conversion. The one that comes quick to mind is failing and falling Nazi Germany. Desperate people in desperate times. All of their (and our) own making. That is the model being followed.

We have an Oil Addiction problem.

Like Stupid Crack or Meth addicts we have already:

1. Burned through all our own resources.
2. Have borrowed heavily to get more.
3. Sold and killed our own and other folks' children in the Oil Wars.
4. Done a Home Invasion Robbery of Iraq.

America is behaving like stinkin' crack hos at this point. Just Nass-Tee.

Now we are getting ready to trash our environment to maintain the addiction.

Likely this stunt may burn the house (our planet) down.

Ever see a healthy Addict? I have not. I have looked.

Too bad they do not make 12 Step Programs for Countries and Cultures.

We need a Sober, Recover(ed/ing) Addict running our program.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-28-2012, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 51,222,776 times
Reputation: 24606
Default Phillip T

I couldn't rep you but you have posted an excellent summary of the problem. High priced oil will end the day of the automotive free range consumer. Autos will be a luxury and everybody else will take the electric bus or trolley. Air travel will become even more of a luxury instead of a mass transport system. Moderate distance, >750 miles, travel will have to take the, hopefully, high speed trains.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 88,986,117 times
Reputation: 29440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Does not match what I am hearing from the wider audience.

Those No-Goes are usually just about:

#1. Price. They do the math and find that a low cost, higher mileage Gasoline car turns out both less money upfront and in the long run for them; and

#2. Fear of Battery Pack failure. Sort of a make-believe fear, but those fears exist.

Really. I have asked around. Never heard a complaint about Charging Times -- except for folks who are making a laundry list of complaints -- and are not buyers anyway. Like pspit.

But I agree for a Would-Be buyer -- Like I am (I am already past the #1 and #2 above) the range matters, and that No-Goes the Ford, but Green Lights the Tesla.
Charge times is one of the commonly cited factors steering consumers away from electric vehicles. Of course price is the #1 issue, as it always is for any major purchase. Needless to say, people would be a lot more willing to work around the drawbacks of an EV if the purchase price were half that of an equivalent ICE-powered vehicle. But since EV's aren't even competitively priced against their ICE counterparts much less undercutting them, most consumers are flat-out unwilling to look past the EV's shortcomings -- charge times among them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 12:28 PM
 
1,418 posts, read 1,331,421 times
Reputation: 1094
Default Intra-Urban Overdrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
They are trying to make an EV a viable substitute, which is not going to happen. People only have so much money, and a car is a large purchase, many people are not going to limit their mobility with this purchase.

In a perfect world, people would have a car for every purpose, thus maximizing the efficiency of the car, but with limited income, people generally need a "do all" car, a criteria an EV does not meet.

Plus the crowd that would use them, apartment dwellers, cannot use them, so this is leaving out a large and most potential market segment.

I wonder why cars don't have an efficient overdrive (efficient axle ratio?), that allows interstate cruising at a minimum of fuel expended. Seems like the auto makers reduce the car's weight, and the cost to build the car, to save gas. If maintaining the correct tire pressure is so important, couldn't a popup sensor on the tire's valve stem be devised for pennies? Heck. They have popup sensors on turkeys. I seem to remember an over drive push button on a '56 Plymouth that did nothing
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 12:36 PM
 
1,418 posts, read 1,331,421 times
Reputation: 1094
Default Off Topic but Funny

Winston the Bulldog vs. Patrol Car. [VIDEO]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 02:11 PM
 
15,924 posts, read 17,373,501 times
Reputation: 7641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Sure. We are almost like a matched pair of bookends on that.

"All Americans" are not buying or even shopping Electric Cars.

In raw numbers only a very small percentage are. But for those that are, I am not untypical. You know me, I talk with a LOT of people. Including and especially those with some variants of Electric Vehicles.

I follow that you are not. So how could you understand those that are, since you cannot accept any new information that does not fit your preconceived concepts and beliefs?

I also follow that you cannot get past the idea of modification of someone's driving habits or some such.

Real deal is that most of US do not care about your particular habits. Sorry, Princess.
^^^^ This is one of the reasons why EV vehicles are such miserable failures compared to the amount of R&D money spent developing them...

In a free society when people are spending a considerable amount of their hard earned money on a vehicle (or anything else for that matter) the vehicle must fit their desires/wants/needs/habits.

When it comes to EV's and all their inconveniences people refuse to make majors changes to their driving habits...

I opened a thread here awhile back on the topic of driving habits with environmentally friendly cars and in it I said:

Quote:
You don't have range anxiety like an electric car, you don't have 4-8 hours downtime recharging the battery AND much less impact on the environment (when you include the manufacturing of the electric cars batteries)...

A car where you don't have to change your driving habits...
Hydrogen powered cars are the wave of the future.

And thanks for once again showing everyone how arrogant, elitist and holier-than-thou you are.....

"sorry princess" ???? ~~ You are one sick person....

Last edited by plwhit; 11-28-2012 at 02:30 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 06:00 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,827,766 times
Reputation: 3955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Charge times is one of the commonly cited factors steering consumers away from electric vehicles. Of course price is the #1 issue, as it always is for any major purchase. Needless to say, people would be a lot more willing to work around the drawbacks of an EV if the purchase price were half that of an equivalent ICE-powered vehicle. But since EV's aren't even competitively priced against their ICE counterparts much less undercutting them, most consumers are flat-out unwilling to look past the EV's shortcomings -- charge times among them.
I know it is cited. But it is not matching what I hear when I actually ask and talk with them, and not so much read internet agenda pieces. Real World, Real People -- Really crazy idear.

Then pspit was trying to figure out why no one actually cared about the charge time, I simply told him that likely buyers do not care. Because the real world ones I have really talked to do not. Not exactly an insightful or genius approach, but it even matches what pspit is hearing and asking about.

We match on that part?


=================

Want to try the test?

Question #1: Are you a likely buyer of an EV at the current prices?

If Yes, advance to #2, else Stop here.

Question #2: Would you buy an EV with the current configuration, battery, charger, and drive equipment?

If Yes, advance to #3, else Stop here.

Question #3: Is the travel range of the EV you are considering far enough for your intended use?

If Yes, advance to #4, else Stop here.

Question #4: Do you care what the recharge time is more than a few hours (if it is less than overnight, for example)?

=========

So tell me the truth -- did you make it to #4? Not real likely is it?

Of course that format is a silly example, but that the charging time does not matter is what I found talking to Real People. That is why the charge time does not matter. Because folks do not care. The industry loses most of its customers before they get there, and the ones that are still ok by #4 are going to be happy with what they get.

===========

Now getting to the Real World application.

After seeing what the industry is doing sucks, I was looking into building a set of EVs for customers with Surplus Electricity. Put them out as rental vehicles to Cash Flow it, and sell off the the Tax Credit. Looks like it could be a do-able deal.

As far as charge time, all one has to do is reconfigure the battery array connections as internally parallel for a much faster charge. Draws High Amps, but for folks with Surplus Power -- who cares?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 06:04 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,827,766 times
Reputation: 3955
Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
You are one sick person....


Yunno what?

That is the same thing the Therapist and my kid's kindergarten teacher tells me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Northeast
1,887 posts, read 1,785,159 times
Reputation: 3737
There is plenty of Lithium around, new plants that where long ago closed are opening. And Lithium will only be the batteries power saver for so long before a some new power source it out. Let's face the facts, 20 years from now probably half the cars will be running on something other than gas, and the Major players are already invested in changing the technology, that will keep them alive and running for the next century.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 07:12 PM
 
15,924 posts, read 17,373,501 times
Reputation: 7641
Charge it! Slowly…

According to electric car advocate Plug in America, it costs $2 to $4 a day to charge an electric car. (GM’s website says it only costs $1.50 to charge a Volt, but that cost will obviously fluctuate depending on where you live and the time of day you’re charging.) While that’s nothing compared to the price of gas, it will still take years to offset the extra cost of the car. But before you worry about cost savings, worry about time savings.

“The charge is fairly slow,” Tesla owner Siegelaub says. “It takes eight hours.” While some newer vehicles can charge in four hours, that still could potentially put a crimp in any plans you have to just jump in the car and go for a drive. And for cars like the Tesla that don’t offer a gas-powered generator as back-up, traveling cross-country could make for short driving days.

5 Reasons NOT to Buy an Electric Car | Money Talks News

They take forever to recharge

It takes around two minutes to refuel a car that uses an internal combustion engine. It can take over two days to fully recharge a Tesla Roadster. 48 hours is a worst-case scenario, but that's the amount of time you'd be looking at if you plugged a Roadster into an ordinary 120 Volt, 15 Amp household wall socket in the US.

Let's do the maths: ordinary US household sockets deliver a maximum of 1.8kW (120V x 15A = 1,800W or 1.8kW) and the Roadster uses a 56kWh battery pack. 56kWh / 1.8kW = 31.1 hours to recharge -- but that's only a best-case scenario, assuming the Tesla's Roadster's charger and battery pack are 100 per cent efficient at receiving electrical charge. The reality is no device is 100 per cent efficient. Heat generated during the charging process, as well as the increasing resistance of a charging battery, means a full charge could take two full days.

Ten reasons electric cars still suck: We unplug the EV hype | CNET UK


And a side note:

Quick charging can damage batteries

High-capacity quick chargers make it possible to charge the batteries of an electric vehicle relatively quickly. In the case of the Leaf, one can charge the battery to 80 per cent capacity in as little as 30 minutes. As attractive as quick charging is, however, it's not something EV owners should rely on exclusively, as excessive quick charging can affect a battery's lifespan.

After ten years of use, one can expect the battery in a Nissan Leaf to degrade to around 80 per cent normal capacity, meaning you can reasonably expect to be doing 80 miles on a single charge rather than the full 100. Frequent quick charging can degrade the battery to 70 per cent in the same space of time, according to our colleagues at CNET.com.

Ten reasons electric cars still suck: We unplug the EV hype | CNET UK

Of course some people live in never-never land where there is always surplus power and people have extra vehicles in their parking lot to use while their EV recharges.....

Lets face it, even if the EV has a 200 mile range (and you are on the road) what do you do while the vehicle is recharging?

It's no big deal? Who's kidding who?

Last edited by plwhit; 11-28-2012 at 07:43 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Green Living
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:31 PM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top