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Old 10-11-2013, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,443 posts, read 28,313,690 times
Reputation: 29041

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0...fluoride/?_r=0


"Every $1 invested in fluoridation saves approximately $38 in dental treatment costs, according to the C.D.C."

Note that is just dental costs. Bad teeth can also have effects on general health, including increasing the risk for heart disease.

Periodontal Disease, Gum Disease, and Heart Health

Medicaid covers dental services, with the amount of coverage varying by state:

Does Medicaid Cover Dental? (with picture)

If the local water systems do not fluoridate, what Medicaid spends will go up. It does not matter whether the funds are raised by local collections for water bills or what we pay in state taxes. No fluoride in the water means taxpayers pay more for Medicaid and for their own dental care.

Diet? Yes, eating less sugar helps. But fluoridated water, toothpaste with fluoride, brushing, and flossing are needed, too. Do all of those and the need for expensive dental care goes way, way down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
You got to be kidding, lack of fluoride in the water is the least worry of the folks partaking of the medicaid dental largess. Many (if not most) of them destroyed their teeth with high sugar diets, smoking&chewing, harder drugs, not brushing, avoiding check ups and high cost dentist visits long before medicaid kicks in (and fluoridated water doesn't do a squat to prevent that). Pay attention to the mouths of the working class folks (forget about people on medicaid), just open your eyes and look at the mouths of the middle class people who do harder labor for living, there is no damn thing fluoridated water did/could do for many of those folks, quite a few have a rotten mess for a mouth (no medicaid would pay to fix). Many seniors on medicaid have few teeth to call their own, just dentures. $38 is a highly creative number.
I don't recollect anyone here saying that if you drink fluoridated water you do not need to watch the sugar and that you can skip brushing and flossing.

You very conveniently truncated my post that you just replied to. I quoted the entire post. Please reread the statement in bold type. I also mentioned not smoking in a previous post.

And no, fluoride will not prevent meth mouth. No one claims it will.

The fact is that fluoride in water works. There is just too much evidence to support it. We even know how it works: by moving calcium into the surface of the tooth to rebuild enamel.

Don't try to pretend science is on your side. It's not.
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Old 10-12-2013, 01:03 AM
 
4,985 posts, read 5,069,472 times
Reputation: 6324
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post

You very conveniently truncated my post that you just replied to. I quoted the entire post. Please reread the statement in bold type. I also mentioned not smoking in a previous post.

And no, fluoride will not prevent meth mouth. No one claims it will.

The fact is that fluoride in water works. There is just too much evidence to support it. We even know how it works: by moving calcium into the surface of the tooth to rebuild enamel.

Don't try to pretend science is on your side. It's not.
It's kinda perplexing to see that science chose medicaid recipients, i.e. the least suitable demographics, to study overwhelming success of fluoridation. Don't you think? It's the fact that significant % of medicaid recipients have terrible (or no) teeth. One could only imagine the dental catastrophe among medicaid recipients without alleged $37 per $1 savings attributed to fluoridation.

Why science didn't choose a posh gated community to study effects of fluoridation on dental health, taxation and public expenditures? It makes too much sense?

Could it be that financing mandatory dental cleaning and check ups, for example, among 18-26 y.o. would be more effective than fluoridation? Since we are talking mandatory public good here, what about outlawing phosphoric acid in soft drinks? I have a hunch that it would save $37,000 per every enforcement dollar. If you want phosphoric acid in your soft drinks you always can move to Mexico or China. The point remains, fluoridation took the lead among public health measures even though it belongs at the end, if anywhere.
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Old 10-12-2013, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,642,389 times
Reputation: 10580
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
You got to be kidding, lack of fluoride in the water is the least worry of the folks partaking of the medicaid dental largess. Yadda yadda yadda...
Here you are bloviating again, with no credible evidence that your opinion has any validity, stacked against 70 years of scientific research and study.
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:23 AM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
15,265 posts, read 12,599,795 times
Reputation: 22102
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
As pointed out by the naysayers there are places that don't add fluoride. You can also drink bottled water that lacks fluoride. The rest of us want fluoride in our water. Live with it or move.
What a charming attitude , guzzle away your way to bone disease...as this is all people are doing... doctors and even your wonderful scientists are held to codes of practice and forced to agree on agendas or paid to do so.. in my own opinion of course.. me being a foolish uneducated old female who didnt go to university to study medicine but who doesnt want to follow the flock.. BLinkered or manipulated brainwashed people will always be stuck in their ways following what they deem to think is the truth.... not so, all through history many mistakes have been made in the medical and scientific professions.... thalidomide being one.. given out to pregnant women, and only fifty years ago... think about it..... OK fluoride has been given out in the US longer than this....but at what cost.. maybe faults we cant see... but then IM full of shi-.
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:35 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,642,389 times
Reputation: 10580
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
What a charming attitude , guzzle away your way to bone disease...as this is all people are doing...
But no, they're not, and the benefits are very well proven, beyond any reasonable doubt.

Quote:
me being a foolish uneducated old female who didnt go to university to study medicine but who doesnt want to follow the flock..
Not following the flock because there is something demonstrably wrong with where they are going is one thing. But not following them when they are going in a righteous direction, just to be contrary, is simply foolish self harm.

Quote:
BLinkered or manipulated brainwashed people will always be stuck in their ways following what they deem to think is the truth....
But what makes you think they have been brainwashed? In my experience it is those who deny expert advice who are most likely to have fallen for non-credible propaganda from the fringes. You can read some of it right here, in this thread.

Quote:
not so, all through history many mistakes have been made in the medical and scientific professions.... thalidomide being one.. given out to pregnant women, and only fifty years ago... think about it..... OK
Yes, and 50 years ago they thought ulcers were caused by stress, because they didn't yet understand that they are actually caused by a bacterial infection. And a little over 50 years ago polio was still a terrifying disease that killed one of my school mates, before effective and safe vaccines were developed. And more than 70 years ago it was discovered that natural fluoride found in the drinking water in parts of the US Southwest gave natural protection against dental cavities. Medical knowledge is constantly advancing.

What is your age threshold for believing that medical knowledge is safe and effective? 100 years? Do you avoid all the lifesaving drugs and techniques invented since then, like modern antibiotics? The fabulously talented Jim Henson, the man who gave the world the Muppets, died of a common infection that could have been cured with maybe $20 worth of antibiotics if he hadn't been so phobic of medicine.

Quote:
fluoride has been given out in the US longer than this....but at what cost.. maybe faults we cant see...
It's also been naturally available in drinking water for hundreds of years. If you are focused on faults that nobody can see, then you are avoid the benefits that everyone can see. Your flock of one is literally headed in the wrong direction.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:51 AM
 
9,216 posts, read 9,289,216 times
Reputation: 28896
Quote:
It's kinda perplexing to see that science chose medicaid recipients, i.e. the least suitable demographics, to study overwhelming success of fluoridation. Don't you think? It's the fact that significant % of medicaid recipients have terrible (or no) teeth. One could only imagine the dental catastrophe among medicaid recipients without alleged $37 per $1 savings attributed to fluoridation.

Why science didn't choose a posh gated community to study effects of fluoridation on dental health, taxation and public expenditures? It makes too much sense?

Could it be that financing mandatory dental cleaning and check ups, for example, among 18-26 y.o. would be more effective than fluoridation? Since we are talking mandatory public good here, what about outlawing phosphoric acid in soft drinks? I have a hunch that it would save $37,000 per every enforcement dollar. If you want phosphoric acid in your soft drinks you always can move to Mexico or China. The point remains, fluoridation took the lead among public health measures even though it belongs at the end, if anywhere.
This kind of a post is an example of the expression "water off a duck's back".

If this poster has bothered to read anything other than his own opinion, he's seen endless concrete evidence that water fluoridation works and is cost effective in preventing tooth decay. He could also infer that no harm has ever proven by fluoridation simply by looking at the example of places like Colorado Springs that have naturally fluoridated water since the community was founded.

An explanation why his "Western diet theory" of tooth decay is flawed has been given.

Yet, because its not what he wants to believe, he simply ignores an endless array of science and established fact.

Some discussions can be pretty frustrating and this is one of them. Some minds are not open to receiving new information that is contrary to their view of the world. It doesn't matter how credible the material is or how it is derived.

Ultimately, all we can do is hope that other people with open minds are listening and learning that hard science and economics substantiates the value of adding fluoride to the water supply.
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:09 AM
 
9,216 posts, read 9,289,216 times
Reputation: 28896
Quote:
What a charming attitude , guzzle away your way to bone disease...as this is all people are doing... doctors and even your wonderful scientists are held to codes of practice and forced to agree on agendas or paid to do so.. in my own opinion of course.. me being a foolish uneducated old female who didnt go to university to study medicine but who doesnt want to follow the flock.. BLinkered or manipulated brainwashed people will always be stuck in their ways following what they deem to think is the truth.... not so, all through history many mistakes have been made in the medical and scientific professions.... thalidomide being one.. given out to pregnant women, and only fifty years ago... think about it..... OK fluoride has been given out in the US longer than this....but at what cost.. maybe faults we cant see... but then IM full of shi-.
A person making a wild claim like "fluoridating the water causes bone disease" is behaving in a highly irresponsible fashion if they have no concrete evidence to support it.

Communities like Colorado Springs, Colorado have had naturally fluoridated water since the founding of the community 150 or more years ago. If water fluoridation caused bone disease, than the people drinking the water in this community would all be suffering from it in some degree. The reality is that they aren't suffering from such a problem and that disposes of your argument. Fluoridation is common in Australia and the risks of fracture and bone disease were studied in a comprehensive fashion. It was concluded that not only did fluoridation not weaken bones and cause more fractures, but that levels of fluoride in the water supply that prevent dental decay probably decreased the risk of fractured bones.

http://nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/fil...ion_PART_A.pdf


[If you care to read what I'm talking about than go to P. 93 of the Report]

Thalidomide is probably the most inept comparison you could make here. Its example does not negate the value of literally hundreds of medicines like penicillin and antibiotics that prevent, cure, and treat potentially fatal and crippling diseases. Thalidomide was removed from the market in the US before it could do any harm because of the comprehensive system of regulation our country has over the introduction of new drugs and medicines into the marketplace.

Science has always contended (and probably always will contend) against ignorance. Those who argue for things based on science will always be at a disadvantage to those who rely on anecdotal experiences, innuendo, and gossip to make life choices. This is because we must support our claims with studies and proof. Its much easier to make up stuff than it is to find a study that has been conducted in each case to refute pure ignorance.
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY
35,621 posts, read 10,546,076 times
Reputation: 33746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moby Hick View Post
You'll want to be careful. Even if you dodge the fluoridated water, some companies put it in their toothpaste.
There's an obvious difference between the topical application of flouride and the ingestion of it.
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
15,265 posts, read 12,599,795 times
Reputation: 22102
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
A person making a wild claim like "fluoridating the water causes bone disease" is behaving in a highly irresponsible fashion if they have no concrete evidence to support it.

Communities like Colorado Springs, Colorado have had naturally fluoridated water since the founding of the community 150 or more years ago. If water fluoridation caused bone disease, than the people drinking the water in this community would all be suffering from it in some degree. The reality is that they aren't suffering from such a problem and that disposes of your argument. Fluoridation is common in Australia and the risks of fracture and bone disease were studied in a comprehensive fashion. It was concluded that not only did fluoridation not weaken bones and cause more fractures, but that levels of fluoride in the water supply that prevent dental decay probably decreased the risk of fractured bones.

http://nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/fil...ion_PART_A.pdf


[If you care to read what I'm talking about than go to P. 93 of the Report]

Thalidomide is probably the most inept comparison you could make here. Its example does not negate the value of literally hundreds of medicines like penicillin and antibiotics that prevent, cure, and treat potentially fatal and crippling diseases. Thalidomide was removed from the market in the US before it could do any harm because of the comprehensive system of regulation our country has over the introduction of new drugs and medicines into the marketplace.

Science has always contended (and probably always will contend) against ignorance. Those who argue for things based on science will always be at a disadvantage to those who rely on anecdotal experiences, innuendo, and gossip to make life choices. This is because we must support our claims with studies and proof. Its much easier to make up stuff than it is to find a study that has been conducted in each case to refute pure ignorance.
Havent you a lot to say.. must have taken a while to do this piece of research but thanks anyway for answering me.. we cant all think the same way ...and all these people must like me be tin hat loonies..
Fluoridation-Free Ottawa - Main Information Page - City of Ottawa - Fluoridation-Free Ottawa
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,047 posts, read 5,905,200 times
Reputation: 9785
"You can't fix stupid."
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