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Old 11-15-2013, 11:04 AM
 
Location: North Idaho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
...... why are they letting so many wildfires burn. Seems to be a new policy not to clear the brush, just let the fires grow to thousands upon thousands of acres,...........
Veering slightly off topic for a brief moment.

The huge wildfires are not the result of "new policy". They are there result of lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit from the "environmentalists", which prevent the proper care of the forests.

I'm putting environmentalists into quotes because as far as I can tell they have no interest in protecting the environment, often severely harm the environment, and are only interested in gaining power and forcing others to do as they say.
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,816,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke View Post
Veering slightly off topic for a brief moment.

The huge wildfires are not the result of "new policy". They are there result of lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit from the "environmentalists", which prevent the proper care of the forests.

I'm putting environmentalists into quotes because as far as I can tell they have no interest in protecting the environment, often severely harm the environment, and are only interested in gaining power and forcing others to do as they say.
I would agree with that, among other purposes serving Agenda 21 (get us off the land and into the cities). HAARP plays it's part in charging the air so we have dry lightening strikes that start these fires.
Yes, it is a conspiracy.
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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For years I have wondered why the 'green' sort of folks use a wood stove which belches out copious amounts of smoke.

I suppose at this point we are past the point of no return with regard to destroying the earth, but it still would be 'nice' if we could get rid of the wood stoves, and those stinky things that people burn crap in on their decks and patios. I just don't understand what people are thinking when they light those things up and dust the entire neighborhood with a thick veil of nasty smoke.

Sadly, people just don't seem to have the good sense to stop these destructive practices, so yes, we must must have laws which enforce what to most just seem like sensible behaviors.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:06 PM
 
2,922 posts, read 3,108,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Bear View Post
For years I have wondered why the 'green' sort of folks use a wood stove which belches out copious amounts of smoke.

I suppose at this point we are past the point of no return with regard to destroying the earth, but it still would be 'nice' if we could get rid of the wood stoves, and those stinky things that people burn crap in on their decks and patios. I just don't understand what people are thinking when they light those things up and dust the entire neighborhood with a thick veil of nasty smoke.

Sadly, people just don't seem to have the good sense to stop these destructive practices, so yes, we must must have laws which enforce what to most just seem like sensible behaviors.
I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek or not.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilton2ParkAve View Post
I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek or not.
It could go either way.
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,558,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
I would agree with that, among other purposes serving Agenda 21 (get us off the land and into the cities). HAARP plays it's part in charging the air so we have dry lightening strikes that start these fires. Yes, it is a conspiracy.
Sorry, but conspiracy theories and imagined chemtrails and scary oogey-boogeymen like "HAARP"... oh MY!.... have absolutely nothing to do with the Environmental Protection Agency's role in reducing the allowable limits for airborne pollutants given off by wood stoves. The EPA literally got created when they did, more than 40 years ago, because ordinary citizens were increasingly demanding that the government step in and do something constructive about the degraded quality of our air and water, amid increased awareness of the health impacts of toxic pollutants.

In the early 1800s German Brothers Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm very successfully published folk tales of evil witches and fanciful dangerous creatures, still popular today, which "fairy-tales" scared the public by playing on deep-seated primal fears of the dangers of dark forests, beasts with sharp claws and teeth, and hulking men with sharp axes. Today's version of those scary folk-story-tellers is people like Alex Jones making a fortune for himself by exploiting people's deep-seated oogey-boogey fears of the darkness of technologies they don't understand, and of imaginary evil organizations taking control of an increasingly confusing world. But make no mistake, none of their wild claims holds up under close scrutiny.

To the contrary, fanciful and scientifically unsupported claims like "HAARP caused Hurricane Sandy!" have been debunked so thoroughly and so often they simply have no rightful place in a serious discussion about environmental issues. This has no more validity than claiming the real cause was upset pixies.

Let's stick to factual details, shall we?
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Volcano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
That said there was semi rural community near me that went and banned outdoor wood boilers and frankly I agreed with their decision. Those things make a lot of smoke and too many people using them to burn wet wood they just cut down, trash or whatever.
Yes, exactly, and this reflects both ignorance and a lack of planning by people who burn green wood. It also compromises the heating value of the fuel, which has to boil off all that water before combustion is possible. Good firewood needs to be seasoned by drying for at least a year before it is fit to be burned. And a good gauge of how ready to burn it is, is how easily it can be split by hand, with an axe.

Both of my grandparents had woodpiles when I was a kid, and I used to think it was fun to chop wood for them when I visited their rural homes. My Canadian grandmother fired up the wood stove in the kitchen every day of her life until she was about 80, when she finally allowed the family to install a small propane burner for her to make her morning tea on, to one side of the kitchen, simply because it was no longer easy for her to fetch wood any more.

And the other leg of my ancestry had a rural farmhouse, with a traditional woodlot, that used to supply all the heat-energy needs of a large and active family, with a very large attached woodshed that would be filled and emptied three times in a year's passing. As a kid I didn't understand the extraordinary amount of work it took to do all that, I just thought it was neat to be able to master the art of splitting 18" logs with a single axe blow... if they were well seasoned, that is, and if you struck them jusssstttt riiiiiight!

As an adult I lived in two different homes in Washington, and one in Hawai'i that all used good wood stoves as primary sources of heat. So I have some practical understanding of the subject.

A lot of the problem I see today is people using wood stoves who really do not understand the basics of how to best use them. Or they are lazy or don't care. I take pride in being able to judge whether firewood is ready to be used by a quick visual examination, possibly followed up by a confirmation with a strokes or two of an axe.

I was taught it is really sloppy and careless to require more than a single match to get a roaring fire going... even out in the open in bad weather. So that's another point. You have to have suitable dry fuel, and you have to be able to manage the dynamics of combustion well, including understanding how to draft a fire properly.

But the rules, unfortunately, have to always be set to deal with the lowest common denominator.

Quote:
Like I said these things need to be regulated at the local level, if it's an issue let them deal with it.
Yep, and on the level it matters to them, they do that, primarily in the domain of behavioral standards.

But local authorities are not well equipped to deal with the larger, more fundamental issues, like... how do you define when "smoky" is "too smoky?" Besides, stove manufacturers are not well equipped to deal with a jillion different local standards, so they depend on a coherent single standard being set that local authorities will find acceptable. And that's the role filled by the EPA.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:58 PM
 
Location: The Woods
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The new regs essentially force out non-cat stoves. Those converters, which need replacement, are not exactly environmentally friendly when you consider the sourcing of the materials needed.

I'll take wood over coal, oil and gas.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
30,648 posts, read 49,319,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
The new regs essentially force out non-cat stoves.
Only in terms of new construction.



Quote:
... Those converters, which need replacement, are not exactly environmentally friendly when you consider the sourcing of the materials needed.

I'll take wood over coal, oil and gas.
I agree.



Wood stoves are not the best choice in an urban environment. But few urban cities allow wood stoves anyway.

Burning wood releases the same CO2 that rotting wood releases.

'Dry' wood / 'green' wood the difference is moisture content. The difference in the exhaust gases is steam, not smoke. 'Green' wood burns just fine, it has a bit higher leave of steam [moisture] in it. Nobody is being fined for steam.

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Old 11-15-2013, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,558,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
The new regs essentially force out non-cat stoves. Those converters, which need replacement, are not exactly environmentally friendly when you consider the sourcing of the materials needed.
That was the claim of opponents to catalytic converters on cars, but of course the visible results over time in America's skies proved them wrong.

Quote:
I'll take wood over coal, oil and gas.
In one sense I will agree with you, although natural gas is very hard to compete with, unless you are in my specific situation, which is living 2,500 miles from the nearest natural gas terminal.

Here's what is right about using wood as a fuel... it is renewable, and unless you are merely plundering ancient forests in slash and burn operations like what is happening in the Amazon, it is not hard to set it up as a sustainable harvest, as they are already doing in parts of the Pacific North West. It is, when you think through the entire cycle, a potentially sustainable indirect use of the solar energy which is captured when plants grow.

Here's what is not... if you are anywhere near where people live, simple open air burning is insufficient. It throws too much crap into the air, largely as a result of the relatively low temperatures involved. There are all kinds of modern technologies that can help drastically increase the efficiency of wood burning, but it's hard to get people to give up old, traditional ways, even in relatively modern, well connected societies.

One of the most interesting recent developments, to me, is the so-called "rocket stove," which uses modern understanding of aerodynamics and thermodynamics to create natural updrafts that elevate combustion temperatures, effectively burning up most of the combustion by-products. To that add a very modest forced air component, utilizing a thermocouple in the exhaust stack to drive an electric blower that augments the natural draft, and suddenly you have a far more efficient "wood stove" that makes a franklin-type stove look like something maybe appropriate for cave-man life. And better yet, it doesn't even require primo fuel, like split and stacked oak, but can even operate effectively using damp biomass and agricultural waste that would otherwise be unusable.

Recalling a time when I spent a few happy hours drying myself out in front of a roaring fire in an ancient pot belly wood stove, on a very rainy afternoon, in a gold rush era saloon in Angel's Camp, California, I am fully cognicent of the romanticism surrounding wood fires and personal freedom, and all that. But as a modern, fully aware human being, understanding how interconnected we really all are, I have to insist on solutions that are not only workable, but sustainable "until the seventh generation of the seventh generation," as the First Nation people express it.

It's not acceptable to just "do what works." We really have to "do what works for all, well past the foreseeable future."
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