U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Green Living
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-16-2014, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,561,964 times
Reputation: 10574

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
i read an article yesterday about some Toyota guy saying hydrogen cells will be the next big thing and electric isn't the way to go. his response to the need for filling stations was basically that they will open them when they need them.
Keep in mind that nobody knows what the winning combination will be. That's why Toyota has parallel development going on in both the EV and the HFCV channels. Guess which one he works for?

Quote:
The thing that I noticed that was missing was the reason why the hydrogen cell will be the next big thing. where is the advantage to the consumer other than less emissions? less emissions is fine and dandy, but nothing will be the next big thing unless its cost effective and convenient (unless you get the government to mandate it).
Well, #1, the government has mandated the results that Hydrogen Power is a candidate to deliver on. I'd have to look up the specifics, but IIRC, in 2015 the State of California will require 15% of the total new cars sold to be zero emissions, which only EVs and HFCVs currently can qualify as. And since the automakers will be assessed substantial penalties if they miss their goals, which would substantially increase the conventional cars they sell, there's a big competitive advantage to meeting the mandate.

In addition there are state and federal standards to meet for average mpg of all the cars sold, and both HFCV and EV raise the overall rating for the brand.

HFCVs also promise greater range and faster refueling than current EVs, which is a big deal to consumers.

And besides, reducing emissions is enough for many potential customers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-17-2014, 10:24 AM
 
Location: NJ
24,037 posts, read 30,143,709 times
Reputation: 15922
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
And besides, reducing emissions is enough for many potential customers.
im not entirely sure if you added this as a personal thing or because its pertinent. im sure some people want to reduce emissions but I think the sales numbers for electric vehicles shows that you aren't going to get enough sales to support a model unless it also works pricewise.

it seems like tesla is able to get a pretty good range. refueling/recharging isn't so hot since it takes longer, but you cant refuel any hydrogen vehicles right now. from what ive read, hydrogen cells would be like a replacement of gasoline with no extra benefits other than zero emissions. it would probably increase costs rather than decrease them (based on the little ive read).

that's probably why I can read an article from a guy saying its the next big thing and he doesn't mention any reasons why it will be the next big thing. why do I care if they can develop a refilling network when I can already fill my car with gasoline? don't bother.

it seems like between electric and hydrogen, electric is a better bet. the main advantage being the ability to refuel in minutes rather than hours. but if they get the costs of batteries down and cost of gas goes up, you could have zero emissions and a cost advantage with electric.

im speaking as a regular person with no technical knowledge. so im like a regular consumer and this is what im seeing in this alternative fuel for cars marketplace.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-17-2014, 02:30 PM
 
4,718 posts, read 8,948,569 times
Reputation: 2153
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
im not entirely sure if you added this as a personal thing or because its pertinent. im sure some people want to reduce emissions but I think the sales numbers for electric vehicles shows that you aren't going to get enough sales to support a model unless it also works pricewise.

it seems like tesla is able to get a pretty good range. refueling/recharging isn't so hot since it takes longer, but you cant refuel any hydrogen vehicles right now. from what ive read, hydrogen cells would be like a replacement of gasoline with no extra benefits other than zero emissions. it would probably increase costs rather than decrease them (based on the little ive read).

that's probably why I can read an article from a guy saying its the next big thing and he doesn't mention any reasons why it will be the next big thing. why do I care if they can develop a refilling network when I can already fill my car with gasoline? don't bother.

it seems like between electric and hydrogen, electric is a better bet. the main advantage being the ability to refuel in minutes rather than hours. but if they get the costs of batteries down and cost of gas goes up, you could have zero emissions and a cost advantage with electric.

im speaking as a regular person with no technical knowledge. so im like a regular consumer and this is what im seeing in this alternative fuel for cars marketplace.
I think you got that statement a little mixed up?

3-phase 480v charging gets the all electric Tesla going pretty quick and battery swap outs are probably coming. Tesla proved they can do a battery swap out faster than you can pump gas. And I am sure that faster charging solutions are coming for the other EV companies, even if it is to take advantage of 50 AMP 220V that you can have at home. The most AMPS I can use on the volt is 16 and I think the leaf is 20AMP... Tesla utilizes the most AMPS so you can get a charged up quick and are leading the way in that regard.

Having said that, Hydrogen is something I'd like to see developed and see where it takes us. EV isn't the total answer either. Making enough Hydrogen and a distribution system is that technologies biggest challenge. There is no plug it in at home and refill it if you can't find a hydrogen filling station. At least not yet. I gotta tell you, I love being able to "refuel" my car from home and I wish that there was a solution to my diesel truck need.

I like alot of different technologies. First it gives us choices. I like CHOICES as it doesn't allow one business (or business segment) to monopolize on our power and transportation, kind of keeps them honest as they say. And it also continues to fuel (no pun intended) invention and efficiency.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-17-2014, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,561,964 times
Reputation: 10574
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
im not entirely sure if you added this as a personal thing or because its pertinent. im sure some people want to reduce emissions but I think the sales numbers for electric vehicles shows that you aren't going to get enough sales to support a model unless it also works pricewise.
Agreed, people who are willing to spend more to reduce air pollution caused by gasoline vehicles, and reduce the damage it causes to the environment are not enough to drive a big market by themselves, but they have been among the early adopters over the last five years, and they continue to be an important influence on others.

Quote:
it seems like tesla is able to get a pretty good range. refueling/recharging isn't so hot since it takes longer, but you cant refuel any hydrogen vehicles right now. from what ive read, hydrogen cells would be like a replacement of gasoline with no extra benefits other than zero emissions. it would probably increase costs rather than decrease them (based on the little ive read).
Again, zero emissions is not like a little side benefit. It's the whole point of this line of development, to get to the point where our vehicles no longer pollute the environment. In the case of Hydrogen powered vehicles the current cost of the fuel is roughly the same as gasoline, and the cars are more expensive, but with volume both are expected to become less expensive over time.

Quote:
that's probably why I can read an article from a guy saying its the next big thing and he doesn't mention any reasons why it will be the next big thing. why do I care if they can develop a refilling network when I can already fill my car with gasoline? don't bother.
Maybe you don't care about air pollution, but others do. And the refilling network is expected to grow outwards from California, because it has the biggest need.

Quote:
it seems like between electric and hydrogen, electric is a better bet.
Nobody really knows yet which will be the best bet in the long run, which is why so many major manufacturers will be offering both kinds of cars for at least the foreseeable future.

Quote:
the main advantage being the ability to refuel in minutes rather than hours. but if they get the costs of batteries down and cost of gas goes up, you could have zero emissions and a cost advantage with electric.
Sorry, you have that confused. Electric is already the cheapest "fuel" at the moment, but it takes many hours to recharge under normal conditions. Hydrogen can be refilled in about 90 seconds, faster than gasoline. I suggest you read through the various threads in this forum for more details.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2014, 06:30 AM
 
Location: NJ
24,037 posts, read 30,143,709 times
Reputation: 15922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
3-phase 480v charging gets the all electric Tesla going pretty quick and battery swap outs are probably coming. Tesla proved they can do a battery swap out faster than you can pump gas. And I am sure that faster charging solutions are coming for the other EV companies, even if it is to take advantage of 50 AMP 220V that you can have at home. The most AMPS I can use on the volt is 16 and I think the leaf is 20AMP... Tesla utilizes the most AMPS so you can get a charged up quick and are leading the way in that regard.
I didn't know about the battery swapping option. I just knew about the quick charge option. so there goes one main advantage of hydrogen. I like choices also but a technology needs to have some advantages in order to reach a critical mass of customers for the business to operate profitably.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2014, 06:32 AM
 
Location: NJ
24,037 posts, read 30,143,709 times
Reputation: 15922
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
Again, zero emissions is not like a little side benefit.
to you it isn't a side benefit. to most people who have to choose where to spend their money, it is. you need to get that money from people who consider it a side benefit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2014, 08:05 AM
 
4,718 posts, read 8,948,569 times
Reputation: 2153
I wonder what the conversion from steam to gas powered vehicles was like? Maybe the conversion to hydrogen will be similar - granted there are way more cars on the road and a higher percentage of people own card too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2014, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Alabama
668 posts, read 465,047 times
Reputation: 1063
I'll gladly burn all the fuel you people can save for me. I
love the smell of diesel in the mornings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2014, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,561,964 times
Reputation: 10574
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
I didn't know about the battery swapping option. I just knew about the quick charge option. so there goes one main advantage of hydrogen. I like choices also but a technology needs to have some advantages in order to reach a critical mass of customers for the business to operate profitably.
I'm a big fan of Tesla cars, but I believe in being realistic about expectations. At Tesla Supercharger locations, it takes 20 minutes for a half-full charge (100 miles, roughly), and more than half an hour for a full charge. They've already got 65 locations installed across country, with many more on the way. You can view an interactive map of present and future Supercharger locations here: Supercharger | Tesla Motors

The battery swap option is an amazing technical achievement... a physical swap of the entire battery pack in 90 seconds... but the details require some careful attention. The cost of the swap reportedly is about $80, and what you get is a loaner unit, which must be returned for your original battery on the return leg. Or, if you are going back on a different route, or not returning at all, you can arrange to have your battery shipped to another location for re-installation, for an additional fee. IOW, it's a premium priced service.

At home, the fastest charging rate with a single high-power charger yields 29 miles of driving per hour of charging, and 58 miles of driving per hour of charging with a twin-charger. So for commuter use, overnight charging is fine. It's when you start looking at cross country use that EVs are not so convenient. And while Tesla quotes a 220 mile range for their top ($78K+) model S , the more affordable EVs from other manufacturers have much shorter ranges, such as 55 miles in the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, which costs $33,630 minus a $7,500 federal tax credit = $26,130 end purchase price. But their effective fuel cost is 3 cents/mile on average, less than half the cost of gasoline.

Compare that with a hydrogen powered vehicle which has a 300 mile range, and can be refueled in 90 seconds, faster than a gasoline car. Now can you see why this technology is attractive?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2014, 01:13 PM
 
Location: NJ
24,037 posts, read 30,143,709 times
Reputation: 15922
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
At home, the fastest charging rate with a single high-power charger yields 29 miles of driving per hour of charging, and 58 miles of driving per hour of charging with a twin-charger. So for commuter use, overnight charging is fine. It's when you start looking at cross country use that EVs are not so convenient. And while Tesla quotes a 220 mile range for their top ($78K+) model S , the more affordable EVs from other manufacturers have much shorter ranges, such as 55 miles in the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, which costs $33,630 minus a $7,500 federal tax credit = $26,130 end purchase price. But their effective fuel cost is 3 cents/mile on average, less than half the cost of gasoline.

Compare that with a hydrogen powered vehicle which has a 300 mile range, and can be refueled in 90 seconds, faster than a gasoline car. Now can you see why this technology is attractive?
i commute and put on around 100 miles a day. i think im a pretty high mileage driver at about 2k miles a month. so since the tesla range would work for me, i think its good enough to get the mass appeal needed. the shorter range ones wouldnt work.

the faster refueling is a benefit of hydrogen (im trusting your info) but it doesnt really seem like an that benefit is worth building a refilling infrastructure and switching over from gasoline. if i want to reduce emissions, have a long range and a fast refill; ill just get a hybrid car.

so while i appreciate you throwing in a positive of hydrogen, i dont really see it as desirable for many people.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Green Living
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:29 AM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top