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Old 01-19-2014, 06:14 AM
 
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I agree captainnj, hydrogen isn't, yet.

Reasons above are why I like range extended EVs with gas or diesel motors at the moment. Today with no less convenience than any other small ICE vehicle I can drive my volt cross country. I couldn't do that in a Tesla or a HFCV today. And if I forget to charge overnight or in one case we lost power overnight we can still use it to get to work in the morning.

If the Tesla Battery swap is like that OpenD, then no thanks for the most part. What if I swapped the loaner several times on a trip?
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:21 AM
 
Location: NJ
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im not trying to be difficult, I read this thread because I was hopeful to read about a better option coming down the line. i find this hydrogen thing strange because they write an article about it but fail to give any good reasons why it should be the next big thing. people do need to buy these things for them to be successful.

Last edited by CaptainNJ; 01-21-2014 at 10:46 AM..
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:47 AM
 
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I never thought you were being difficult. If we don't have open and meaningful discussions and opinions on the next new tech. it will be a disaster. I am more of a chance taker or forward thinker when it comes to accepting and trying out new things. I like to think that we will one day be driving something other than an ICE vehicle. The mainstream population needs to accept it for it to "work" though.

Whereas to an extent I am amenable to some inconvenience for the sake of new and/or clean tech. I realize that most people are not. For Example, I go out of my way to find and buy BioDiesel. We charge up the car every night which takes a few extra minutes a day and has to be plugged in before you walk inside and unplugged before you leave. I realize not everyone wants to be in minimally inconvenienced over what they currently have.

It is a pain to find and buy BioDiesel, overall, and I spend more to burn it as well. It is like the Ethanol conundrum, the fuel is cheaper (most of the time) but you get less MPG. However, I like the way the truck runs and smells when I use it, I know it is keeping everything clean and lubricated, and I like the fact that I am using less Dino fuel. The problem with LNG, CNG, Hydrogen, Methane, whatever other fuel/gas you want to use is the ability for the common person to get it and put in the car to drive. It is truly which do you get first, the cart or the horse? Tesla sold cars first and they are slowly building out supercharging networks. Early adopters put high cap charging stations in their houses. Even if you created a better battery, EV right now isn't a total solution as not everyone can charge up and you can't realistically drive anywhere you want at any time. In my gas/diesel vehicles, if tonight I decide to not go home and drive 1,500 miles away, I can. That needs to be possible in whatever the next gen. vehicle propulsion system runs on. I believe this was also your point?
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:52 AM
 
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Instead of more taxes and regulation your government ought to fund a crash program to find a replacement for the internal combustion engine.
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:14 PM
 
Location: NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
In my gas/diesel vehicles, if tonight I decide to not go home and drive 1,500 miles away, I can. That needs to be possible in whatever the next gen. vehicle propulsion system runs on. I believe this was also your point?
I think the ability to go very long distances with no problems dealing with long refueling/recharging times mid-trip would be great, but I don't think its necessary.

I drive about 2,000 miles a month but its pretty much all commute. we use my wife's car for weekends and long trips. so even though I put on a lot of mileage, a range of 200 miles would be more than adequate for me (my commute is 100 miles daily, I believe traffic/cold weather also need to be considered). so I don't think you need a ton of range to make it to the mainstream. those superfast charge places would also help for very long ranges distances. you could time your lunch/dinner/bathroom/etc. break around that.
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Old 01-21-2014, 01:10 PM
 
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We drive considerably less than 2k miles a month. I drive about 5k miles a year on my truck and my wife drives under 10k miles a year on her car. (I have a work car - my truck is mostly the long distance vacation vehicle) Only reason I have 26k miles on my 2011 is that I have taken it to the NE part of the US twice and out to Utah from Florida. Otherwise I would have probably 12k miles on it.

Refueling fast enough is an issue with me. We have taken our vehicles on several 300+ miles per day drives away from our house in the past few months and a 3500 mile round trip drive as well. This is one of the things I don't want to compromise on. So with a supercharger station I guess I could time our bathroom, rest stop, meal break by the supercharger network, but that would add alot of time to our trip vs. the conventional way we go now. One of things I like about my truck is the 600-800 mile range it has. I miss my old Diesel Excursion with a 50 gal tank and 22 MPG on the highway.

I have two different vehicle use cases and as such we have two different vehicles as well. I wonder how many people have a hybrid and a large diesel truck?
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Volcano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
In my gas/diesel vehicles, if tonight I decide to not go home and drive 1,500 miles away, I can. That needs to be possible in whatever the next gen. vehicle propulsion system runs on.
I disagree. I think there are other relationships one can have to a vehicle than needing it to do everything imaginable. As a matter of fact, I've already seen a totally different kind of relationship emerging in several places.

The most obvious break with the "family car" tradition I grew up with is something a lot of Millennials are already doing... not owning a car at all, and using a Car Share Service when nothing else but a car will do. This generation is also using public transportation much more than we did, because they value their commute time for using social media.

Now, after a couple of years of non-ownership, say that a Millennial couple marries and has a couple of kids. Or marries and has a couple of dogs. Whatever. Or one of them gets a new job that's not so accessible by public transportation, so they decide to buy a small commuter car, just minimalist transportation, and the commute distance they face is the American average commute for work... 16 miles one way, 32 total. Even with running the usual errands, they still figure that an EV with a 75 mile range is more than enough for there needs, and they find that every EV on the market but one can fill the bill, so they're cool and buy the smallest, most affordable one they can. And it makes their life wonderful.

But then along comes Thanksgiving, or the 4th of July family reunion, or just a nice vacation down to the beach that will require driving 800 miles just getting there and back, what then? Simple! Rent a larger car for the one week out of the year they need it. Net auto expense for the year? Far less than it would cost to own and drive that larger, less fuel efficient car every day throughout the year just to be able to drive it on a longer trip.

It's a trend I saw emerging 5 years ago, and even among my friends of an older cohort, this new approach has been catching on.

And who knows, other permutations may come to the fore. Zero-emission cars don't need to fit old school patterns of use to find a niche and create a demand, as we can already see happening.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:46 PM
 
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I have a family with 2 kids, so 4 of us. Both kids go to different schools and for the cost of bus service I could make lease payments on a Tesla. We have family all over the U.S. and take a lot of driving trips per year. We've taken 2 in the past few months for 1,200 miles total. Last summer we drove 3,500 or so on a quick summer trip up the east coast US. Sometimes we leave on a moments notice. We go to places that do not have airports and rental car agencies nearby either. To top it off, the people we are seeing only have one car typically - so borrowing one isn't feasible. Not everyone lives around 24/7 services. Right now I do, but a lot of our family does not. I do rent when it is affordable to do so for the longer drives. It is hit and miss, since if I want to drive 3,000 miles round-trip during winter break - it costs $2000 - $3000 for the rental van or large vehicle that we all fit in. Whereas my summer drives that I can plan I can get a van for around $1000 for a month.

It is probably psychological to us that are 30 or older, but the just the feeling of being totally range limited is not a good feeling. (I am older than 30 - but I believe that millennials at the oldest are in their 20s?)

Yes, ride share every once in a while could save money, but those services around here are absolutely ridiculously priced. Try to get a rental vehicle for tomorrow for a period of a week or two...

There are lot more issues with ride shares that need to be worked out. It isn't there yet either.

I think your social media example has merit, but we are not that far from having cars that drive themselves. Now having the tech to do it and the population accepting it are two totally different things.

One limited range or refueling vehicle in a family with multiple vehicles is OK. As the replacement for all vehicle, I just don't see it. Too many people want that freedom and the millenialls will at one time as well. Most of the millenialls I talk to want their own car, they just don't want to spend the $$ on it. The first thing on my mind as a teenager was a car and it isn't with the new generation. This new view has the car manufacturers worried too -and it should. FWIW, what I see as a big barrier for a 16-24 year old is the insurance. I remember having a car worth $2500 as a 16 yr. old and the insurance was $3600 for the year.
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:46 PM
 
Location: NJ
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Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
I think your social media example has merit, but we are not that far from having cars that drive themselves.
I think young people are turning more to mass transit because they are moving more into cities and owning cars in cities is very expensive. they aren't making enough money to afford a car.

I know when I lived in Brooklyn, I paid $5k for 2 cars a year for insurance, now in the suburbs in nj its $1,400. plus in certain areas you need to pay for a parking spot which could be well over 200 a month.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Volcano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
It is probably psychological to us that are 30 or older, but the just the feeling of being totally range limited is not a good feeling. (I am older than 30 - but I believe that millennials at the oldest are in their 20s?)
There's not a single definition that everyone agrees on, but the term generally includes anyone born from about early 1980s to early 2000s, so lets say late teens to early thirties.

Quote:
Yes, ride share every once in a while could save money, but those services around here are absolutely ridiculously priced. Try to get a rental vehicle for tomorrow for a period of a week or two... There are lot more issues with ride shares that need to be worked out. It isn't there yet either.
It's much more there than you may realize in certain locations. Check the Car2Go website, for cities that have more than 400 vehicles each in their systems.

Quote:
I think your social media example has merit, but we are not that far from having cars that drive themselves. Now having the tech to do it and the population accepting it are two totally different things.
Ten years from now that may be a factor, by the best expert opinions.

Quote:
One limited range or refueling vehicle in a family with multiple vehicles is OK. As the replacement for all vehicle, I just don't see it. Too many people want that freedom and the millenialls will at one time as well.
I guess we'll find out.

Quote:
Most of the millenialls I talk to want their own car, they just don't want to spend the $$ on it. The first thing on my mind as a teenager was a car and it isn't with the new generation.
Right, it was the first thing on my mind too. I went to Driver's Ed class so I could get my driver's license when I turned 16. But Millennials are waiting until they are 20, 22, later even. All their patterns are different. They don't do onene dates as much, but hang out in groups more. They don't need the privacy of a car for sex, because they've had sleepovers at home since they were 16. They don't in any way believe that their parent's way of doing things was right, so they are determinedly less materialistic.

I would HATE to have to predict what they will do, because I don't think anyone has a clue.
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