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Old 01-16-2014, 01:32 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,631,867 times
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This is pretty interesting to me, because I think it nicely broadens the range of development on Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle(HFCV) technology to two delivery truck designs, a hydrogen tanker design, and roof top backup power system, which would aid the drive for wider infrastructure deployment.

I had thought it was a given that Southern California was pretty much the epicenter where HFCVs would have to make their stand, because of the combination of very high vehicle density with severe air pollution issues, plus tough state requirements that 15% of the new cars sold in the state starting in a couple of years must be zero emission. And to me that means that EV and HFCV prices will go down, and ICE vehicle prices will go up.

But FedEx trucks, and UPS trucks, and fuel tankers to haul hydrogen the way tankers now haul gasoline mean that the supply network and usable range for passenger cars could get a boost from these projects.

Quote:
The “hydrogen economy” just got a nice push from the Obama administration, which is now partnering with the private sector to facilitate a fresh wave of fuel cells that can be used to power the transportation sector. The U.S. Department of Energy announced at year end that it would spread a US $7.2 million investment across four states: Georgia, Kansas, Pennsylvania and Tennessee, all to support projects that fuel vehicles and support power systems. The administration says that it is part of its “all-of-the-above” energy strategy.

The winners:

*The Center for Transportation and the Environment, which will get $3 million. Based in Atlanta, it is developing a fuel cell hybrid electric walk-in delivery van that has a 240 km range before it would need refueling. The project will also retrofit 15 UPS delivery vans with fuel cell hybrid power trains.

*FedEx Express, which will receive $3 million. Headquartered in Memphis, Tenn., it is building a hydrogen fuel cell delivery truck with a range of up to 240 km on a full tank.

*Air Products and Chemicals, which will get $900,000. The hydrogen supplier is located in Allentown, Penn. and is constructing a cost-effective tube trailer for hydrogen delivery and storage that can withstand high pressures.

*Sprint, which will receive $250 000 to use hydrogen fuel cells as backup power for its rooftop cellular sites. In a press release the company says that it will focus on lightweight fuel cell system that can be easily installed without heavy cranes and that can be refueled from the ground, eliminating the need for transporting fuel to the rooftops.

Obama Administration Wants to Speed Up Hydrogen-Powered Vehicles - IEEE Spectrum
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:54 PM
 
4,718 posts, read 8,967,645 times
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I am also guessing that unlike Petro-Fuels that Hydrogen doesn't degrade over time in storage? Is that an accurate statement? Does hydrogen in tanks absorb (or want to absorb) moisture? I believe that is a problem with CNG and LP those are tough to get and keep "dry".

Diesel and Unleaded Gasoline both degrade over time, which we all know...

If Hydrogen doesn't have these issues or new downsides, I could see it being a good stand-by fuel for generators located in areas that don't get serviced unless there is an issue. I would be willing to bet that some rural cell towers once they are setup and dialed in, probably don't get touched by human hands all that often. And definitely not humans hands that would want to recycle stale fuel out.

OpenD - Your solar panel hydrogen producing panel, even a small one, could be placed there to replenish the fuel supply... All sorts of possibilities here.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:09 PM
 
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I agree if people has listen to Boone Picken on NG conversion in public and commercial transport years ago we would be further ahead. But it easy to do really and more and more are converting to it. Its already happening in many local public and commercial systems.
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Volcano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
I am also guessing that unlike Petro-Fuels that Hydrogen doesn't degrade over time in storage? Is that an accurate statement? Does hydrogen in tanks absorb (or want to absorb) moisture? I believe that is a problem with CNG and LP those are tough to get and keep "dry".Diesel and Unleaded Gasoline both degrade over time, which we all know...
Apparently Hydrogen does not have these issues. It does not absorb water and the tanks are impervious to water. The only apparent weak point is the valve and seal which can allow a very slow leak of the pressurized gas if less than perfectly sealed.

Quote:
If Hydrogen doesn't have these issues or new downsides, I could see it being a good stand-by fuel for generators located in areas that don't get serviced unless there is an issue. I would be willing to bet that some rural cell towers once they are setup and dialed in, probably don't get touched by human hands all that often. And definitely not humans hands that would want to recycle stale fuel out.
One weakness is that since pipelines have many thousands of seals and valves, current technology does not support the use of pipelines for long distance hydrogen delivery. So tankers are more important... which is why the Federal grant for development of better tanks is significant at this stage.


Quote:
OpenD - Your solar panel hydrogen producing panel, even a small one, could be placed there to replenish the fuel supply... All sorts of possibilities here.
I agree. I'm looking forward to having a solar hydrogen generator on the roof that feeds both my vehicle and my home's fuel cell generator for night time power... no grid tie required!
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Old 01-17-2014, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Bend Or.
1,126 posts, read 2,460,159 times
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But storage remains the biggest issue. Even if the generator is developed, it will take a compressor to fill a storage tank, in order to store a usable amount. Hydrogen is pretty readily available but the cost of conversion equipment and storage is still the biggest drawback. I have been watching the technology for about 15 years, Including investing in a Fuel cell company, but there has been very little true advancement in that time. It is one of the most exciting concepts out there but has really had some issues getting to the mainstream.
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:59 PM
 
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There is a slow CNG compressor for home use that I am only assuming could be adapted to Hydrogen use. Or at least used as a starting point for it. Only bad thing about the home use one on the market is that it uses 800 watts and takes about as long to fill up a car as my 800 watt EV charger draws to charge up my battery pack. Granted, I only get 45 miles on that charge and the Hydrogen compressor should give you 200-300 miles - but you still have to get the "gas" to compress somehow.

I am hopeful this will get worked out somehow. Even if I decide that EV is the way for one of our vehicles, I like to see different technologies out there.
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Old 01-19-2014, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,631,867 times
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I'm no engineer, but here's my imagination about how my home hydrogen production unit might work in the near future...

The Solar/Hydrogen unit on the garage roof would use the direct solar water-cracking technology recently announced, to generate hydrogen gas that would be collected into a low pressure first stage storage unit. From there a high pressure compression pump, running off the the solar cell that powers the entire house, packs hydrogen fuel into the high pressure tank that allows rapid refueling of the HFCV buggy in the garage.

Hey, it could happen!
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Old 01-20-2014, 02:27 PM
 
4,718 posts, read 8,967,645 times
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It could, but I can only imagine the cost of that system. Yep, it would technically give you "free" fuel for the most part after the initial investment. (although who knows what type of maintenance it will need).

Not a bad idea though, allow it to collect and slowly pressurize a holding/filling tank all day long so that all you do is pull up and refill the car quickly at pressure... You could even have gas stations that do this on a larger scale with grid power backup, so you could make long distance drives. Brings a new meaning to the word "gas station" too. Obviously they would collect a fee for you to fill-up and it also brings you into the convenience store. Forward thinking this could be accomplished at places we regularly visit instead of having a separate "gas station".

I bet the oil and gas companies will buy the rights to the system, now that I think about it.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Some Beach... Somewhere...
4,791 posts, read 4,036,026 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
I bet the oil and gas companies will buy the rights to the system, now that I think about it.
And I'll bet that all of Obama's friends, formerly in the solar energy business, have regrouped and formed Hydrogen Power companies. They will receive billions in loans and grants, produce some minimally working devices or concepts that look good for photo-ops, then declare bankruptcy.

The public has grown tired of and is now wary of solar energy scams. This is the same old act in a new wrapper.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:58 PM
 
4,718 posts, read 8,967,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
And I'll bet that all of Obama's friends, formerly in the solar energy business, have regrouped and formed Hydrogen Power companies. They will receive billions in loans and grants, produce some minimally working devices or concepts that look good for photo-ops, then declare bankruptcy.

The public has grown tired of and is now wary of solar energy scams. This is the same old act in a new wrapper.
Welcome to the US, now that we know that is how the world works we can move on. Democrats and Republicans have both been known for this tactic. This is the same old story, just a different name/party on it. We play the same game at the local level here too and in every community I have researched.... Only instead of billions it is millions or in the cases of small towns down to the hundreds of dollars.

Hopefully they get exposed quick enough to be stopped and of course some are never found out - I wish I had a solution, but I don't. Do you?
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